Death Panels? Naaa...... you're all crazy

[wisco]

FoxNews.com - Canadian Family Fights to Keep Boy's Breathing Tube in Place

So a judge in Canada has literally ordered a family to kill their 13 month old son. The family is defying the order and trying to get their child treated in the US.

And people want this sh!t in the United States??????

This should be a BIG wake up call. What kind of POS judge orders a family to let their child die. This man has no effin soul.

[marinepilot]

FoxNews.com - Canadian Family Fights to Keep Boy's Breathing Tube in Place

So a judge in Canada has literally ordered a family to kill their 13 month old son. The family is defying the order and trying to get their child treated in the US.

And people want this sh!t in the United States??????

This should be a BIG wake up call. What kind of POS judge orders a family to let their child die. This man has no effin soul.

You'd think it would be a big wake up call to those who want this crap. Unfortunately, those who want it don't usually watch Fox News, and I guarantee the main stream media is just ignoring this news story, as it does NO GOOD AT ALL for their beloved anointed one!

This is what it will come down to, alright. Only here we won't have judges deciding, it'll be bureaucrats and politicians and those they appoint who will decide when we've become to expensive to go on living.

[canuckofapeach]

Aren't your hospitals legally obligated to care for patients who are ill on an emergency basis but are not obligated to be the continuing provider for uninsured patients?

Would it be different in the USA if the parents had money? They could prolong the poor kid's life a la Terry Schiavo but if an uninsured patient was in a persistent vegetative state with no chance of recovery and zero quality of life, the hospital would probably override moral and religious discomfort plus adverse publicity and discontinue life support.

There are countries whose universal health care system is complemented by private insurance plans such as Australia and this seems to work by lessening the burden by spreading the cost around.

Having said this, there is a 2-tiered system in Canada within the provinces of Alberta and Quebec, and the parents could pay for the baby's care if they wished. But I suppose it's easier to have someone pay it all and they are hoping that, by releasing their plight to the media, the costs will be borne by others who, in an inverse way, know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Blame fate, Wisco. Blame God, perhaps. I pity the parents because their lack of denial that this baby will never recover has ended up in misplaced anger. And the parents' personal agenda is usurped by media like FoxNews who have no real interest in this baby than to exploit it for their personal agenda and rail against the evils of socialised health care in order to get more site hits. What an economic daisy-chain, huh?

[wisco]

Blame fate, Wisco. Blame God, perhaps. I pity the parents because their lack of denial that this baby will never recover has ended up in misplaced anger. And the parents' personal agenda is usurped by media like FoxNews who have no real interest in this baby than to exploit it for their personal agenda and rail against the evils of socialised health care in order to get more site hits. What an economic daisy-chain, huh?

The point is not whether this baby will recover or not. The point is that this is a human child and he has a right to fight for his life. The decision should lie with the family - NOT some cold hearted judge, costs be absolutely damned.

If Canada and their ingenious "free" healthcare system cannot support this child or recognize his right to live then the whole system is.... well disgusting for lack of a better word.

Other than a few news agencies out of Canada, my google-fu has utterly failed in trying to find other mainstream American media that is covering this story. All you ever hear from them is pretty rainbows and unicorns about socialized healthcare.

Fox is now and has before exposed the reality of government controlled healthcare. Just because it's something you don't want to hear does not make it a lie or an exploitation.

It's the truth, and the truth hurts.

[canuckofapeach]

The point is not whether this baby will recover or not. The point is that this is a human child and he has a right to fight for his life. The decision should lie with the family - NOT some cold hearted judge, costs be absolutely damned.

If Canada and their ingenious "free" healthcare system cannot support this child or recognize his right to live then the whole system is.... well disgusting for lack of a better word.

Other than a few news agencies out of Canada, my google-fu has utterly failed in trying to find other mainstream American media that is covering this story. All you ever hear from them is pretty rainbows and unicorns about socialized healthcare.

Fox is now and has before exposed the reality of government controlled healthcare. Just because it's something you don't want to hear does not make it a lie or an exploitation.

It's the truth, and the truth hurts.

Wisco, you still haven't told me how your country would handle this scenario with the present medical system and how it would intertwine with the religious and moral aspect of it all. This is a genuine question.

If this was your baby and you were uninsured or under-insured, what would happen? Truth comes from an unbiased collectivity of stories and not from political partisan views or special interest groups.

Any media source will play up a story to their audience. And their audience will display selective outrage without knowing all the facts.

Here was the Canadian news link:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2.../17322376.html

Look at the quality of that report and compare it with the Fox one and see if they differ in their approach in terms of the facts, the issue and the tone of the overall narrative.

You fear that this is a template for what might happen in your country because it has been played up or down by a polarized media for years. That appears to be the truth. And that truth might hurt. I am not a proponent of total free health care but I don't like the outrageous costs that are associated with your private system and I, especially, don't like the hypocrisy of individuals using the excuse ( in this case) that no one has the right to play God, however impaired that life might be, while allowing millions of people to barely get basic health care and shrug it off. I would hardly consider that Christian values. And I would hardly consider Canada to be the poster child of perfection or the target for slings and arrows when most of the Western industrialised world has universal health care.

At any rate, this topic has been done ad nauseum for years and is quite tiresome, in particular the 'death panel' label, as the individual who coined it used to go to Canada for medical treatment.

You do seem to get angry a lot over things.

[oscarmitre]

FoxNews.com - Canadian Family Fights to Keep Boy's Breathing Tube in Place

So a judge in Canada has literally ordered a family to kill their 13 month old son. The family is defying the order and trying to get their child treated in the US.

And people want this sh!t in the United States??????

This should be a BIG wake up call. What kind of POS judge orders a family to let their child die. This man has no effin soul.

You need to read something other than the Fox report you linked. That way you will get a better appreciation of the story and see the dilemma that is confronting everyone involved in this case.

As a summary this is apparently what is happening:

1. The child is in a persistent vegetative state without hope of recovery. Granted that is a medical judgement and like any judgement from a single source should be critiqued carefully. I mean it would be like accepting a story from Fox and not checking on it wouldn't it?
2. The family, quite naturally is devastated. This is the second of their children to contract this disease and it must be breaking their hearts to see they are going to lose another child. I can't comprehend their pain.
3. The doctors are of the opinion that further treatment is not possible and will only prolong the suffering of the child. However since the child appears to be insensate that could be a somewhat moot point. But since they exist to among other things, reduce human misery, I can see their concern.

But in reality this is yet another beat-up by Fox. It's not a cost issue at all.

Try here - Fox Uses Case Of Canadian Baby To Raise Specter Of Death Panels | Media Matters for America

But that's Fox for you, never let the facts get in the way of a good burst of right wing propaganda.

[retdetsgt]

But that's Fox for you, never let the facts get in the way of a good burst of right wing propaganda.

As opposed the the left wing propaganda machines such as ABC, CBS, CNN and NBC? Most of the reporters there act like spokesmen for the Obama administration. The reporting from New Orleans during Katrina was pathetic the way they blamed Bush and ignored the lack of action and shunning of responsibility by the state and local Democrats. There is little doubt that if Clinton or Obama had been president, they couldn't have praised their response enough. The tone of their coverage of Iraq and Afghanistan changed dramatically after Obama took office. There is nothing objective about the American news media. Just because the others say what you like to hear doesn't mean it's true either.

That being said though, I'm not sure a judge wouldn't have intervened here either in a case like this if the insurance company refused to pay for continued life support and the hospital didn't want to foot the bill either. There is a point where reality has to set in. Is this family going to bring the child here and pay thousands of dollars a day for life support themselves or we going to have to eat it? I hope they're extremely wealthy.

It's tough for a parent to accept the death of their child, I don't care who it is. My wife's son was killed in a one car wreck and for a long time she tried to find something sinister in the way it happened rather than accept he made a horrible and fatal mistake. And my wife is a very bright and rational woman. I can't count the number of parents who will go to their graves believing their child was murdered and the police didn't care when the teenager was found in their bedroom, door locked from the inside, windows locked, a gunshot wound to the head and the gun still in the child's hand. The truth can be unbearable for a parent.

Also the "Death Panels" in Obamacare have nothing to do with that sort of thing. It's to help prepare people for their own demise by counseling, assistance in estate planning, etc

All that being said, I want no part of Obamacare, but not for these kind of reasons.

BTW, the court has intervened in this country before in death cases. This one was the opposite, but the N.J. Supreme court made the decision.

Karen Ann Quinlan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[SANE-A30]

I can only answer this in regards to what I do for a living I am a nurse at a long term acute care facility.. i'm not by any means agreeing with the judge b/c I do beleive that parents should have the last say I am a mother , HOWEVER, there does come a time when patients in this condiction it becomes INHUMANE to continue life support, my facility has had to take two cases to trial to try attempt guardianship, we have a active case right now they may result to this...The last one the lady was in a vegetative state and two sons was fighting over her situation the lady was literally rotting on the vent to the point we had to keep a wet wash cloth over her face b/c she was bleeding from her eyes , ears,nose and mouth. her skin was literally shedding off of her body..... when you are actively dying your skin is the first thing to break down as well as your organs.- what quality of life is this??? when it gets to this point there has to be some kind of line.......we currently have 5 charity cases at my work due to insurance nolonger being available.... and two of these cases is in our ICU unit... the average cost to stay at the facility where I work is 2,000$ a day or more out of pocket.....

*personally I think it is selfish to keep someone alive in such grave condictions... and when I say grave I mean a vegetable...I see it a lot where I work let's keep our ninety-nine yr old granny alive on the vent to get her check...this is the other flipside not saying this is what the parents are doing but honestly the baby must be in pretty bad shape for this to have gone to trial........ you truly get to see all aspects of human nature...but that is a whole other topic.

[oscarmitre]

At least the truth is coming out now.

News Hounds: Megyn Kelly Uses Dying Canadian Baby To Foment Fear of Death Panels

There you go wisco, you can put your fears to bed and calm down a bit, it's all bull**** from Fox.

[SANE-A30]

I also wanted to touch on the fact that when a person is withdrawn from life support ( TERMINAL WEAN, proper medical term) the machine is just not unplugged and that's that so many people get this misconception in their head..The patient is started on A morphine Iv drip 4mg every two hours until they are unconscious / twilight sleep... then it goes to 4 mg Q 4... once unconscious the patient is put on a a Trach Collar which is still Oxygen they are just nolonger on a ventilator ( life support) at a supported/set rate basically the machine is nolonger breathing for them..if the patient shows signs of distress the morphine or addictional medications is added....hospice is also used to counsel the family... that's how it is done where i work anyways...

[retdetsgt]

I also wanted to touch on the fact that when a person is withdrawn from life support ( TERMINAL WEAN, proper medical term) the machine is just not unplugged and that's that so many people get this misconception in their head..The patient is started on A morphine Iv drip 4mg every two hours until they are unconscious / twilight sleep... then it goes to 4 mg Q 4... once unconscious the patient is put on a a Trach Collar which is still Oxygen they are just nolonger on a ventilator ( life support) at a supported/set rate basically the machine is nolonger breathing for them..if the patient shows signs of distress the morphine or addictional medications is added....hospice is also used to counsel the family... that's how it is done where i work anyways...

That's not how they did it with my step son. They just turned off the machine. I was in the room.

[SANE-A30]

That's not how they did it with my step son. They just turned off the machine. I was in the room.

that's awful RET :( I'm sorry...I'm glad our facility does it this way * If* it has to be done either way they are NEVER EVER easy

[MikeG]

Aren't your hospitals legally obligated to care for patients who are ill on an emergency basis but are not obligated to be the continuing provider for uninsured patients?

Would it be different in the USA if the parents had money? They could prolong the poor kid's life a la Terry Schiavo but if an uninsured patient was in a persistent vegetative state with no chance of recovery and zero quality of life, the hospital would probably override moral and religious discomfort plus adverse publicity and discontinue life support.

There are countries whose universal health care system is complemented by private insurance plans such as Australia and this seems to work by lessening the burden by spreading the cost around.

Having said this, there is a 2-tiered system in Canada within the provinces of Alberta and Quebec, and the parents could pay for the baby's care if they wished. But I suppose it's easier to have someone pay it all and they are hoping that, by releasing their plight to the media, the costs will be borne by others who, in an inverse way, know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Blame fate, Wisco. Blame God, perhaps. I pity the parents because their lack of denial that this baby will never recover has ended up in misplaced anger. And the parents' personal agenda is usurped by media like FoxNews who have no real interest in this baby than to exploit it for their personal agenda and rail against the evils of socialised health care in order to get more site hits. What an economic daisy-chain, huh?

In the U.S., I believe the hospital is required to find an institution that will accept him if the person cannot care for themselves. Hospitals get either state or federal aid to care for patients unable to care for themselves. They can also treat and release them if they are able to care for themselves and they are not in a life threatening condition.

In no circumstances can an emergency facility refuse treatment or refuse transfer.

In this case, I suspect the infant would be moved to a hospice for end of life care. It would be very hard for a hospital or hospice to remove life saving apparatus without the parent or guardians consent. The type of hospice and the facility would depend on who is paying. The government would pay for the poorest through medicaid or the state version of medicare. Most likely, extraordinary care would not be provided (i.e. the infant would not be eligible for a transplant). Feeding tubes, breathing machines, etc, are considered minimum care.

That's my understanding anyway. Not a dr., leo or lawyer. care could also vary by state so YMMV.

[MikeG]

I also wanted to touch on the fact that when a person is withdrawn from life support ( TERMINAL WEAN, proper medical term) the machine is just not unplugged and that's that so many people get this misconception in their head..The patient is started on A morphine Iv drip 4mg every two hours until they are unconscious / twilight sleep... then it goes to 4 mg Q 4... once unconscious the patient is put on a a Trach Collar which is still Oxygen they are just nolonger on a ventilator ( life support) at a supported/set rate basically the machine is nolonger breathing for them..if the patient shows signs of distress the morphine or addictional medications is added....hospice is also used to counsel the family... that's how it is done where i work anyways...

This article said the hospital/Drs would not do a tracheotomy (is a tracheotomy rquired for trach collar?.

My only experience like this is with a friend of mine who lost a 4 year old child to cancer. They went through all the treatments and after that they knew it was terminal and there were only weeks left. The Drs said they can take him into hospital or the child can live his last days at home and they would make him comfortable.

Basically all the laws regarding drugs and administration are set aside in the interest of patient care (as they should be). The parents were given instructions on how inject morphine. They contacted their Dr for every injection. He told them the amount to inject over the next three weeks, day or night, to relieve symptoms. When the child did pass, he was comfortable and surrounded by his family. But the parents made all the decisions. There was no bureacratic BS. Even the laws that are in place to thwart drug abuse were squinted at to make this happen and I suspect it goes on all over the U.S. I like it much better when the Dr is working for the patients and not an arm of the government. I want the Dr. explaining stuff to the patients, not hiding behind bureaucrats.

[SANE-A30]

Yes Mike you do need a trach for a Trach collar, the trach collar is what stabilizes the intercanula in place.. and you are correct about your above post Hospitals are required to find accepting facilities a lot of our patients get sent to our facility in ohio :( we have numerous facilities all over the us 13 in texas a lone!

I thought the child was on life support??? now I'm confused what was the judge ruling againist then?? so you have a doctor refusing to insert a trach a judge wanting to end life support and parents wanting to ship their obviously severely unstable child across country...... A BIG MESS to me....:(