Obama 'army' begins recruitment

[noelchabanel]

Please, for the love of God, put down your TV remote!

The Constitution was written borrowing wisdom from Philosophers like Locke, Hume, Rousseau, what percentage of their works have you read? Locke's ideas on the separation of church and state, was the basis for what was written in the Constitution, and Thomas Jefferson wrote a few letters some of which were QUOTED as the basis for the supreme courts justification for the official term separation of church and state which is currently a more stable LAW than the whole damn second amendment!


Let's stop making in factual assumptions about our founding fathers based on what some under educated TV or Radio broadcaster (who is more worried about his Neilson ratings than the truth) says.

In God we trust was added to our money after the CIVIL WAR (before that it was very intentionally the Latin 'E Pluribus Unum' or "from many one") it was added because people got it in their heads that the civil war was a curse from God for our departure from him etc. etc. we have not reversed this momentary stumble because it is easily argued that God is very non specific, as far as I’m concerned God could be a reference to the flying spaghetti monster (Google it it's funny).

But that not being the point of this discussion I think you’re going a little far in taking this Army quote out of context asking how it'll fit in with the National Guard and regular army? It’s an analogy to an intellectual force, not armed, volunteer, not paid.

Dare I say it if you remove God from the church, G.W. Bush already had his own grass roots organization pushing (parts of) his agenda, and some of those people believe exhibitions of JOY not related to God are sins and if you don't believe as they do it's their fault...those are the lunatics i'm worried about, not the ones that come to your door and explain their side of an issue if you allow them, (okay they will probably mis-represent that their side is the only side but that's a different conversation).

i'm no longer a republican or a democrat, because it seems that the 10% on the extreme right and left are the only ones represented. and we are too busy over-reacting to the little things that the side we don't associate with does, that we don't even realize our side isn't representing us most of the time either.

Turn off Fox, Turn of KOS, Turn off CNN, learn about those representing you, their votes, their connections to organized crime etc. do your own research on how and why the constitution is interpreted the way it is, you may find yourself just as mad at the person you keep voting in as your TV has been telling you to be at the other guys!
-Deke

I don't support government imposed religion, but to be honest, the "wall of separation" idea of separation of church and state really isn't what the founders signed on to. This is actually what I did my senior thesis on when I finished my BA.

The truth is, states in New England had official state churches that were supported by tax dollars. And not just in the superstitious 1600's you read about in academy-approved textbooks, but all the way into the mid 1800's...long after all of the founding fathers (and even most of their children) were dead. Other states had them as well for varying lengths of time. Oddly enough, it was really only the southern states who opposed state churches in Jefferson's time. In New Hampshire, the town's minister was often a paid town employee hired by the board of selectmen. NH's legislature abolished them about 50 years after the US constitution was adopted because congregations frequently split and formed new churches. They would then bogged down the courts with an endless string of lawsuits over who should get the tax revenue. It had nothing to do with any constitutional argument. Having an official church was common practice in most of the states that ratified the constitution in the first place before AND after it was adopted.

I think it's a bad idea to mix government and religion too much for a lot of reasons, but the appeal to history and the alleged will of the American people in 1789 really isn't accurate.

[noelchabanel]

And yeah, I think giving people college credit for campaigning is a bad idea....unless its a politics internship and you do a research paper. I wonder if they would be so happy to give reserve police officers and volunteer firefighters college credit....but they are not as likely to vote his way so I kinda doubt it. :rolleyes:

[Big_Montana]

I don't support government imposed religion, but to be honest, the "wall of separation" idea of separation of church and state really isn't what the founders signed on to. This is actually what I did my senior thesis on when I finished my BA.

The truth is, states in New England had official state churches that were supported by tax dollars. And not just in the superstitious 1600's you read about in academy-approved textbooks, but all the way into the mid 1800's...long after all of the founding fathers (and even most of their children) were dead. Other states had them as well for varying lengths of time. Oddly enough, it was really only the southern states who opposed state churches in Jefferson's time. In New Hampshire, the town's minister was often a paid town employee hired by the board of selectmen. NH's legislature abolished them about 50 years after the US constitution was adopted because congregations frequently split and formed new churches. They would then bogged down the courts with an endless string of lawsuits over who should get the tax revenue. It had nothing to do with any constitutional argument. Having an official church was common practice in most of the states that ratified the constitution in the first place before AND after it was adopted.

I think it's a bad idea to mix government and religion too much for a lot of reasons, but the appeal to history and the alleged will of the American people in 1789 really isn't accurate.

firstly rep given, didn't know some of this stuff.

So the only point of this clause is to keep religious lawsuits out of the courts? doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with keeping religion from having an influence on government itself and vice versa? this wall that you say is not what was signed was the documented opinion of Adams AND Jefferson. while the state religious issue is interesting, as many states were founded on religion, i think you might be giving too much weight to state issues as a compass for a federal policy that was heavily influenced on getting enough votes for ratification. i think we do agree here on the point relivant to this discussion that a grass roots orginization of the people called for by a religious president would in no way be illegal, and a call for one that has no religion can not be called imoral or unethical because the religious version would be in any way wrong.

where i would like to hear more is on why so many of those same founding fathers can be quoted dirrectly as having stronger wording in explaining these clauses against church and religion, than you imply for very much different reasons. many of them are explaining their positions in signing said clauses. are these significantly out of context? i realize the original quotes have a lot to do with government having no control over religion, but i would think, given what i beleive to be the context the founders understood the problem with religion controling government too.

here's a few quotes i could find.

President James Madison ("Father of the Constitution" and principal author of the First Amendment):

"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant violation."

"Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States. . . ."

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."

"[T]he number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."


Church & State

"[W]hen it was proposed to open the Constitutional Convention, over which he [George Washington] presided, with prayer, the motion was lost. Only three or four of the delegates favored it, and it is not recorded that Washington was one of them."

"[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Article VI, Clause 3 of the Constitution

(The object of Article VI, Clause 3 was) "to cut off forever every pretense of any alliance between church and state in the national Government." U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States

"They [the Founders] knew that to put God in the Constitution was to put man out. They knew that the recognition of a Deity would be seized upon by fanatics and zealots as a pretext for destroying the liberty of thought. . . . They intended that all should have the right to worship, or not to worship; that our laws should make no distinction on account of creed." Robert Ingersoll

(Church-State scholar John Swomley "The chief political debate at the time the First Amendment was adopted was not between those who wanted to support religion and those who didn’t. It had already been decided in the Constitutional Convention not to give the federal government any power to deal with religion. The problem faced by the first Congress was one of defining a prohibition so that no future Congress would assume an authority that had not been granted under the Constitution."

(The solution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . . ." Religion Clauses of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution


"[T]he government of the United States of America is not founded in any sense on the Christian religion. . . ." (From "The Treaty with Tripoli," approved by President Adams and unanimously ratified by the Senate.)

[CityOfChicago]

Hey - I just found a proof for upcoming Obama college recruitment posters

Join With Obama!

[Piggy]

Hey - I just found a proof for upcoming Obama college recruitment posters

Join With Obama!

LMAO. Runs right along with this video:

[CityOfChicago]

Half those kids look like they could be defeated by tossing some jelly donuts at them. The gold boots are a classy touch. Combined with the utilities, it says "Yes, we will wage war against you - but we can look 24k while we do it"

[noelchabanel]

firstly rep given, didn't know some of this stuff.

So the only point of this clause is to keep religious lawsuits out of the courts? doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with keeping religion from having an influence on government itself and vice versa?

I did not say that. Jefferson definitely believed in it. He was from the South, which was entirely Anglican at the time, some of the southern patriots' mistrust of religion was more politically than philosophically motivated...they didn't trust the bishops and ministers who had been appointed by and were formerly the servants of the Crown

this wall that you say is not what was signed was the documented opinion of Adams AND Jefferson. while the state religious issue is interesting, as many states were founded on religion, i think you might be giving too much weight to state issues as a compass for a federal policy that was heavily influenced on getting enough votes for ratification.

We live in a republic, not an aristocracy run by philosophers. If the 13 legistlatures said "no" then it would never have happened. Adams was the son of a minister, and believed that a real cooperative democracy REQUIRED strongly religious people of else it would descend into an amoral me-first free-for all. Jefferson was the polar opposite, he believed it was perfectly moral for occasional bloody insurrections to occur to remind the government it wasn't really in control. They both had their good and bad points. They were actually mortal enemies for many years, and patched things up later after both were long retired.

i think we do agree here on the point relivant to this discussion that a grass roots orginization of the people called for by a religious president would in no way be illegal, and a call for one that has no religion can not be called imoral or unethical because the religious version would be in any way wrong.

where i would like to hear more is on why so many of those same founding fathers can be quoted dirrectly as having stronger wording in explaining these clauses against church and religion, than you imply for very much different reasons.

There was no consensus. The southerners generally opposed state involvement with religion, and New Englanders had no problem with it. Adams actually personally wrote the constitutions of both Massachusetts and New Hampshire (which are both still in effect today) both of which had tax supported churches until long after his death. I think both even required all state officials to be protestant even longer than that.

many of them are explaining their positions in signing said clauses. are these significantly out of context? i realize the original quotes have a lot to do with government having no control over religion, but i would think, given what i beleive to be the context the founders understood the problem with religion controling government too.

They were only a few of the dozens of signers. Few completely agreed with Jefferson, well educated or not. We'd have no Senate if he had his way, giving states like NH and MT the shaft. Jefferson wasn't our king, he was one of a group elected by the people's representatives to do a tough job. He may well have been the brightest of the bunch, but that doesn't give him the final say. It was the entire body that decided how things would go for us, and we continue to allow that today....a practice John Locke would be proud of. He also did not put the bill of rights in at first. He felt the document was complete without it. The first 12 amendments were a concession to the many states who would not sign on without it.

here's a few quotes i could find.

Note that all of these people were from Southern states. You'd never find a quote like that from Adams, or even his son.

President James Madison ("Father of the Constitution" and principal author of the First Amendment):

"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant violation."

"Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States. . . ."

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."

"[T]he number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."


Church & State

"[W]hen it was proposed to open the Constitutional Convention, over which he [George Washington] presided, with prayer, the motion was lost. Only three or four of the delegates favored it, and it is not recorded that Washington was one of them."

"[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Article VI, Clause 3 of the Constitution

(The object of Article VI, Clause 3 was) "to cut off forever every pretense of any alliance between church and state in the national Government." U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States

"They [the Founders] knew that to put God in the Constitution was to put man out. They knew that the recognition of a Deity would be seized upon by fanatics and zealots as a pretext for destroying the liberty of thought. . . . They intended that all should have the right to worship, or not to worship; that our laws should make no distinction on account of creed." Robert Ingersoll

(Church-State scholar John Swomley "The chief political debate at the time the First Amendment was adopted was not between those who wanted to support religion and those who didn’t. It had already been decided in the Constitutional Convention not to give the federal government any power to deal with religion. The problem faced by the first Congress was one of defining a prohibition so that no future Congress would assume an authority that had not been granted under the Constitution."

Note the phrase "Federal" government. The amendments did not apply to the states until the 14th was passed and the court interpreted it as having that intention. The reason for that was that Southern states were thus prevented from legally denying blacks their equal protection under the law. The wall of separation sort of mushroomed out of that in the late 19th and thoughout the 20th century

(The solution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . . ." Religion Clauses of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution


"[T]he government of the United States of America is not founded in any sense on the Christian religion. . . ." (From "The Treaty with Tripoli," approved by President Adams and unanimously ratified by the Senate.)

It isn't founded on that per se, but he definitely thought we required strong churches and religious education to survive as a nation. Those states who had him write their new constitutions in the 1790's (NH and MA) had town tax collectors collect their minister's salaries to that end.

Replies in bold. I thought about including quotes, but it's so long already :rolleyes: who has time for all this?

[noelchabanel]

Half those kids look like they could be defeated by tossing some jelly donuts at them. The gold boots are a classy touch. Combined with the utilities, it says "Yes, we will wage war against you - but we can look 24k while we do it"

What a waste off good donuts. :rolleyes:

[noelchabanel]

Sorry Big Sandy, I'm not falling for it. I give my point of view and you give a dissertation. Every assumption you've made about me is 100% wrong, hopefully your major isn't Psychology.

Really, who can keep up with all that typing? I have grass to cut and dinner to eat :D