Police Defense Techniques - Not good enough.

[w1zard]

Im going to get right to the point. Police officers need to be trained how to defend themselves better that what the Academy teaches them today, most officers just tackle the person and hope all goes well, it take's about 4 different officers to take one suspect down. Anyways, we need to develope something like the russian's have, they don't screw around and they get the job done with sheer martial arts Russian Judo techniques. Im not saying our Law Enforcement isn't good, but we could lower the number of officer injuries by getting the right defense system up. For Example, a drunken moron is pulled over and the officer talks to him and gets sucker punched in the face and gets his jaw broken, if the officer would have kept arms distance from the perp and not been so close he could have prevented this. Does anyone else feel the same about this? Give me your comments.

[Oldbillplod]

The problem is we always have to be seen to be playing fair, you can only meet force with force. Walking upto a compliant subject and giving them a vulcan death grip because you think they might be violent is a tad over the top.

[not5150]

It would be nice for the academies to churn out Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee level graduates, but money and time are big limiting factors.

Imagine how much money it would cost to train for every single move/countermove. Not only that, but imagine how long the academy would be.

Techniques are all well and good, but remember that police deal with unpredictable people. An expert in hand-to-hand combat can still be hit with a sucker punch. Police also are in stressful situations, where simple moves are better than complex moves.
I remember being taught the aikido/ju-jitsu/epileptic squirrel gun retention moves, but the range master said, "Forget that BS, if the guy puts a hand of your gun, jam your finger into his eye. That will be that last thing on his mind, literally"

Heck, I've taken years and years of martial arts (American Kenpo mainly), and what have I learned? Glock-Fu beats Kung Fu.

[not5150]

The problem is we always have to be seen to be playing fair, you can only meet force with force. Walking upto a compliant subject and giving them a vulcan death grip because you think they might be violent is a tad over the top.

Oh but it would be so satisfying.

Suspect 1: I know I was speeding, but...
Officer: Vulcan Death Grip
Suspect 1: Arrrrrgh!!!

Old lady with cat stuck in tree: Can you help me get my ca...
Officer: Vulcan Death Grip
Lady: Arrrrrghh!!!!

[Johninaustin]

Russian Police routinely use a level of force that would create a LOT of rich lawyers and imprisoned police officers here.

I watched one training film where the arresting officer took his man into "custody" by running full tilt at him and smashing him in the face with an AK. In another one they hit the suspect with a car.


As for officer defensive techniques being inadequate, I'm still here, all my buds are still here, and I cannot think of a situation where an officer LOST a fight that didn't involve 3 or more aggressors.

I suggest that you actually train on, then USE such methods in an actual setting before you critique.

[txinvestigator1]

W1zard has a point. However he is a little off on the idea. Teaching ANYTHING in the academy and then the officer stops training after the academy is the problem.

I have thought this for years. Self defense is a perishable skill. This is one factor in excessive force incidents. A suspect starts to resist, the officer tries to get compliance and it does not work. Due to lack of training, panic sets in and excessive force results.

[Ranger__101]

You can never get enough training as Tex says and DT is perishable. Officers after some time When officers come out of skills, then the in-house academy the're pretty good about keeping distance and not taking risks (to be blunt --doing dumm ****). Then after a while they get sloppy and the Super High Intensity Training (We though in the academy - these damm exercises - ****) doesn't get refreshed.

For many departments how many times in training have your rollplayed felony stops, high risk stops and unknown risk stops out of the academy.

Lets work at getting the training programs back to have our officers have the necessary skill levels and not have them slip back and put themselves at risk.

Just look at any COPS episode.. Keep track of the number of times an officers does something that puts them at risk or something they should have known better to do. At work we'll sit down and watch COPS and point out some of the stuff and kinda use it as a refresher of what to do, what not to do and what could have been done better.

[w1zard]

http://www.linxxacademy.com/adult/defensivetactics.php

This is the type of stuff Law Enforcement officials need to learn, CQC (close quarters combat). Not the martial arts type crap, martial arts almost never EVER works in real life situations unless your a black belt and you know how to use it and overcome someone screaming at your face and being punched in the face for the first time, so basically you spend all that time learning how to kick and punch for nothing. These course's in the link above are trained by a veteran navy seal, he obviously knows how important it is for law enforcement agencies to defend themselves and handle a perp as effective and as quick as possible. He teaches you:

Defense Against Edged Weapons
Defense Against Clubs/Sticks
Disarming Techniques
Expandable/Fixed Baton Training
Prisoner Control
Hostage Handling
Weapon Retention
Ground Fighting
Compliance and Control Techniques
Close Quarter Striking
Full Contact Equipment Training
Tactical Exercises and Simulations

[txinvestigator1]

http://www.linxxacademy.com/adult/defensivetactics.php

This is the type of stuff Law Enforcement officials need to learn, CQC (close quarters combat). Not the martial arts type crap, martial arts almost never EVER works in real life situations unless your a black belt and you know how to use it and overcome someone screaming at your face and being punched in the face for the first time, so basically you spend all that time learning how to kick and punch for nothing. These course's in the link above are trained by a veteran navy seal, he obviously knows how important it is for law enforcement agencies to defend themselves and handle a perp as effective and as quick as possible. He teaches you:

Defense Against Edged Weapons
Defense Against Clubs/Sticks
Disarming Techniques
Expandable/Fixed Baton Training
Prisoner Control
Hostage Handling
Weapon Retention
Ground Fighting
Compliance and Control Techniques
Close Quarter Striking
Full Contact Equipment Training
Tactical Exercises and Simulations

:rolleyes:

[0311Marine]

It should also be pointed out that the Russians "Training Dummies" are actually prisoners taken out of jail for practice.

[not5150]

This is the type of stuff Law Enforcement officials need to learn, CQC (close quarters combat). Not the martial arts type crap, martial arts almost never EVER works in real life situations unless your a black belt

Hmmm... going to their webpage, it says

"A challenging Martial Arts curriculum that consists of a core of striking, weapons and grappling techniques provides a practical and balanced education in the arts."

Many people who have gone through martial arts programs know that belt status means nothing. A white belt at some schools can beat black belts at other schools. Often, the black belt signifies that you are just learning.

The academies cannot teach you everything, and some officers spend their own money learning other techniques. Ground fighting seems to be all the rage these days.

I think officers today do just fine with the techniques they are taught. I know in California, they spend days teaching wrist-locks, pain compliance, carotid, etc etc etc. If you can't do the technique, you don't pass. These are simple, effective, and proven techniques that everyone can learn.

Of course the big problem is not practicing them after you graduate.

[w1zard]

Your right, belts do not mean anything in martial arts, but if you know anything about the achievement system in getting a black belt, you have to demonstrate that you know how to handle yourself and how to control yourself. CLOSE QUARTERS COMBAT however, is a type of ART trained at the Lynxx Academy of Martial Arts, but it trains officers and special operations employees how to handle themselves and disarm suspects.

I think officers today do just fine with the techniques they are taught. I know in California, they spend days teaching wrist-locks, pain compliance, carotid

Yeah but those little wrist-locks won't save you from someone throwing a fury of kicks and punches at you. They won't save you from a gun pointed to your head, or a knife fight. Now will it? Officers need to be able to handle themselves and not take 4 officers to handle the perp.

Hmmm... going to their webpage, it says

"A challenging Martial Arts curriculum that consists of a core of striking, weapons and grappling techniques provides a practical and balanced education in the arts."

Defense Against Edged Weapons
Defense Against Clubs/Sticks
Disarming Techniques
Expandable/Fixed Baton Training
Prisoner Control
Hostage Handling
Weapon Retention
Ground Fighting
Compliance and Control Techniques
Close Quarter Striking
Full Contact Equipment Training
Tactical Exercises and Simulations

[B]^ This is what CQC is buddy, its like mixed with Judo overpowering someone bigger then you, disarming, groundfighting. CQC is all countering, and you can handle anyone and take anyone down with these styles, I mean for god sake, the Navy SEALs don't even learn martial arts, its all Close Quarters Combat.

[Cat_Doc]

Yeah but those little wrist-locks won't save you from someone throwing a fury of kicks and punches at you. They won't save you from a gun pointed to your head, or a knife fight. Now will it? Officers need to be able to handle themselves and not take 4 officers to handle the perp.

This is what CQC is buddy, its like mixed with Judo overpowering someone bigger then you, disarming, groundfighting. CQC is all countering, and you can handle anyone and take anyone down with these styles, I mean for god sake, the Navy SEALs don't even learn martial arts, its all Close Quarters Combat.

Hey, Wiz, would you mind stating some of your experience or credentials that would lay a foundation of expertise for making such statments?

Thanks in advance,

Doc

[w1zard]

In law enforcement? None. (field im going into)

Martial Arts? 5 years.

[txinvestigator1]

Your right, belts do not mean anything in martial arts, but if you know anything about the achievement system in getting a black belt, you have to demonstrate that you know how to handle yourself and how to control yourself. CLOSE QUARTERS COMBAT however, is a type of ART trained at the Lynxx Academy of Martial Arts, but it trains officers and special operations employees how to handle themselves and disarm suspects.



Yeah but those little wrist-locks won't save you from someone throwing a fury of kicks and punches at you. They won't save you from a gun pointed to your head, or a knife fight. Now will it? Officers need to be able to handle themselves and not take 4 officers to handle the perp.




Defense Against Edged Weapons
Defense Against Clubs/Sticks
Disarming Techniques
Expandable/Fixed Baton Training
Prisoner Control
Hostage Handling
Weapon Retention
Ground Fighting
Compliance and Control Techniques
Close Quarter Striking
Full Contact Equipment Training
Tactical Exercises and Simulations

[B]^ This is what CQC is buddy, its like mixed with Judo overpowering someone bigger then you, disarming, groundfighting. CQC is all countering, and you can handle anyone and take anyone down with these styles, I mean for god sake, the Navy SEALs don't even learn martial arts, its all Close Quarters Combat.

With all due respect for your enthusiam, you don't know what you are talking about.

I have been involved in the martial arts since 1988. MOst schools put out black belts that don't mean squat. I have seen people pass BB tests without actual contact sparring. :rolleyes:

I know MANY black belts that if ever get into a street fight will have their butts handed to them.

Close Quarters Combat is NOT an art, it is a term. Your buddy may teach a type of CQC, and thats all fine and good.

LEO's carry guns to defend against gun and knife attacks. They carry OC, Batons and sometimes tasers to defend in less deadly situations.

It is always better to have 4 LEO's arrest a combating bad guy than it is for 1 officer to try it, no matter how "bad ***" he is. Using more officers decreases the risk of injury to everyone.

And anytime a system claims

you can handle anyone and take anyone down with these styles,

you know it is BS. (I guess these marketing gurus never considered that the BG migh know the newest SEAL/DEADLY ART/NINJA training)

And how do you know WHAT the SEALs learn? What was YOUR BUDs class #?