Do you approve of waterboarding?

[Silver Fox]

I hate to disagree with you Sarge and respect your opinion, but will have to disagree with your consensus. I'm sure it has happened, but IMO the harsh methods of interrogation by LEO's has been mostly exagerated rumors for the past 100 years or more by the anti LE crowd, in movies, TV, fictional reading, the Tawanda Brawleys, Etc. Personally, I've never used it and know of no one who has tortured anyone to get a confession.
Many will disagree, but the US is and has been, since its founding, the most humanitarian nation on the globe.
Liberals will have us believe that waterboarding is a common practice and has been used on every Muslim and Islam sympathizer interrogated and then released and all those incarcerated in Gitmo.
Actually, our Intel agents have used waterboarding as a means of interrogation only 3 times and then only on proven and known terrorists.
Waterboarding is not as harsh as it seems, as no one has ever drowned from being waterboarded.
Since WB'ing has been ruled out by this administration, what method of interrogation should we use on a fanatical enemy who have been brainwashed from infancy to believe that to die while killing Israelis, Christians and non believers is an ultimate honor and they'll be rewarded in paradise with 72 virgins?
It would be hard to win the confidence of any group of people who are so dedicated in their cause that they would fly a plane into the side of a building or crash one intentionally, as 4 did on 9/11/01. In view of the new interrogation policy we'll be getting no further Intel Info.for at least the next 3 and a half years that could prevent another national disaster.

[CityOfChicago]

Well, first and foremost I'm for killing them where they live and sleep, day and night, rain and shine. Kill them all on the field - I got no problem with that.

If some are "captured" or arrested and you think we can learn something from them, by all means throw a little mind fuk at them and break them down. Convert them to our side? Of course not. The rest of them? Fuk them too, put 'em in a big nasty prison and run that ***** like Shawshank. I got no problems with that.

[retdetsgt]

Cops did, Bill. Not that long ago in NYPD as a matter of fact. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was sodomized with a mop handle in a precinct bathroom. A lot of those old guys were still around my dept when I came on and I heard some horrific stories from them. It just wasn't in the movies. But my city had a long history of corruption.

There's whole lot of things I don't know much about, but I do know something about interrogation, that was my strong suit. And human nature is human nature, I don't care what your religion is. These morons were brainwashed once by somebody, they can be again.

As I said, I don't care a bit about the terrorist or what we put them through. But waterboarding or anything else like that isn't going to be reliable. Bad information is worse than no information at all.

Jesse Ventura said, and I believe him, give him 30 minutes with **** Cheney and he'll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders. Ventura is no liberal and he's a former Navy SEAL. I have no doubt he could do it.

[Silver Fox]

I'll pose this question: What if a video surfaced from the MidEast that showed captured US military being waterboarded? It has already been suggested in this thread that the Geneva Convention is worthless, so then throw out any complaints you may have over this as a violation. A video is released that shows captured US military being repeatedly waterboarded, each day, with a disclaimer saying that it's not torture, but the enemy deems it necessary in order to find out where the next big military strike by the US will be. Would you stand by your currentargument and say that it's OK for them to be waterboarded because it's not torture? Or would you cry out in outrage "How dare they do that to Americans!" Because I guarantee you, that's a similar thing they cry out in the MidEast when they see us waterboarding their people. We're helping to create new terrorists, born of the same indignation you would feel if the roles were reversed.


We'll never see such a make believe video of what you descibe COC as waterboarding, if ever used by an Islam fanatic, would be done only as a minor punishment to their wives and kids when they're disobedient and naughty.
Our enemy believe in a harsher method of interrogation and punishment for us, as we've already viewed on live TV... of psychotic islam killers hacking off the heads of Americans with what appeared to be dull knives, than holding it up by the hair of the head grinning like hyenas. And, before this thing is over we could be seeing a lot more heads being sawed off.
We're not creating new terrorists, as they all came into this world despising us with a passion.

[retdetsgt]

Convert them to our side? Of course not.

I never had any intention of converting any baby rapers or killers to our side either, but I got confessions from over 80% of them that didn't invoke Miranda right away, and few did. When they left the interrogation room, they thought I was their best friend in the world.

As I just posted, these guys were brainwashed once, they can be again.

[Joeyd6]

Not that long ago in NYPD as a matter of fact. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was sodomized with a mop handle in a precinct bathroom.

That was not an interrogation technique nor a regular thing in the NYPD. That was a cop who was bad apple from day one (according to his file), who slipped through the cracks, was really pissed at a perp taking something personal, and acting on it. The perp was Abner Louima and the cop was Junstin Volpe. Other cops were involved with some roughing up en-route and others lied (to cover up) who were aware what happened, but did not participate. And it was not recently, it was 12 years ago.

Many here are making some huge assumptions.

1) Water boarding was done on 3 individuals. THREE! Three individuals with known terrorist ties and near the top with direct knowledge. These individuals were interrogated and refused to cooperate. Every other method was exhausted before they were water boarded. The water boarding got the U.S. intel that saved thousands of lives according to many government officials, appointed by both President Bush and President Obama.

2) You folks are thinking about this as "torture" and you were raised in the United States, with liberty and freedom. You were taught not to hurt others and respect others views. These animals were not. They do not think like us nor is their logic like us. So if you think your typical interrogation techniques would work on them (where you get them to think you are their friend and manipulate and trick them), you are not only wrong, but you better quickly find a class at a local college or government agency on radical Islam and terrorist studies, because you need to brush up on their theory so you can do your job better and possibly prevent a terrorist incident.

I don't care how many interviews anyone has done. They were on somebody from a civilized culture, on American soil, by a cop, who they know would not kill them for fear of getting sued. And these crimes they were interviewed over simple, a murder, a robbery, a theft, a fraud, etc..... These scumbags are NOT Americans. They are not civilized. They did not simply rob a bank or murder one person. They are planning to kill YOU, your wife, slit your 5 years olds throat, blow your 80 year old mothers into a million pieces while she is at church, etc.... They have been trained and raised to hate Americans, they believe any American in a position of authority is a liar, and that Americans will not hurt or torture them do to our upbringing. They have been taught this their whole life. It has been instilled that this is Allah's message their whole life, typically 20-30 years. And you think you can walk in with standard techniques and get them to talk about their plans to fulfill what they think is Allah's desire?

Human nature is not human nature all over the world or religion. That thinking will get you or somebody else killed and walking out of an interview without the facts. Want proof? Human nature is to run away from danger. But when we (LE) hear gun shots, what do we do? We run toward the danger. Our human nature has been defeated by our training. And most of us have been through a few academies. In my short life, I have been through 4 which equate to 2 years of training or so. If you don't think a radical Muslim with 20 years of training isn't able to beat the standard techniques, you folks are committing one of the deadly rules of law enforcement: underestimating your opponent!


3) Sitting in a confined space with a bug your scared of or being put on a sea-saw, tilted back with a towel on your face and water being poured to get you to talk is NOT torture. It is a technique. Torture is something somebody does to you for no reason. I don't care if you are the janitor for Al-Qaeda, a new member or the head of the agency, using these techniques and others to get them to talk and tell you everything they know is not torture. If 1 million of them go through this and just 1 American is saved, I am fine with that.

I was at those towers on 9/11 and lived first hand what torture is. I watched thousands die that day, and endangered myself, my-coworkers and family, as did many others. My wife sitting at work, seeing what happened on TV and being forced to drive home and sit and wait for 14 hours to know if I was alive, that was torture. Watching over a dozen people jump 110 stories out a window because they are burning alive, and then hitting cement pavement where they exploded like a water balloon is torture. Digging in a pile of dirt and finding a foot in firefighter boot is torture. Digging in a pile of rock and finding a small kids hand with a Spider-man wrist watch is torture. I have not gone a day or night in eight years without being tortured with the sights, sounds and images of what these extremists did on 9/11. That is torture.

[retdetsgt]

The water boarding got the U.S. intel that saved thousands of lives according to many government officials, appointed by both President Bush and President Obama.

That's the company line. I still doubt it..... If you believe everything the government says, I don't care who's in power, I got some property for you.

They are planning to kill YOU, your wife, slit your 5 years olds throat, blow your 80 year old mothers into a million pieces while she is at church, etc....

You don't think there are Americans who were raised here that aren't like that? :rolleyes: I've interviewed a few. Read about the Nazi SS and the Russian KGB. They did the same thing and they weren't Islamic nor from the MidEast.

Human nature is not human nature all over the world or religion.

Yes it is. An a@@hole is an a@@hole, no matter where he was raised or what is religion is. Anyone can be manipulated. As I said, they were brainwashed before, they can be brainwashed again. I doubt they are the brightest bulbs in the box to begin with.

3) Sitting in a confined space with a bug your scared of or being put on a sea-saw, tilted back with a towel on your face and water being poured to get you to talk is NOT torture. It is a technique. Torture is something somebody does to you for no reason.

Not being able to breathe is torture. Having a reason or not is bullshit. Everybody that tortures anyone else thinks they have a reason. I won't insult you by posting the Webster's definition of torture though.

I was at those towers on 9/11 and lived first hand what torture is. I watched thousands die that day, and endangered myself, my-coworkers and family, as did many others. My wife sitting at work, seeing what happened on TV and being forced to drive home and sit and wait for 14 hours to know if I was alive, that was torture. Watching over a dozen people jump 110 stories out a window because they are burning alive, and then hitting cement pavement where they exploded like a water balloon is torture. Digging in a pile of dirt and finding a foot in firefighter boot is torture. Digging in a pile of rock and finding a small kids hand with a Spider-man wrist watch is torture. I have not gone a day or night in eight years without being tortured with the sights, sounds and images of what these extremists did on 9/11. That is torture.

I have no doubt whatsoever that was horrible. I can't imagine having to experience that. It also can keep a person from looking at it objectively too. If I witnessed that, I'm sure I'm be more interested in revenge than interrogation.

[ChevySSP]

First off CoC if they had captured US military they wouldn't torture them for info. They would torture them for fun, then use them for a message sent to their "infidels."

The Mid East is a dirty, third-world country whose morals and liberties are not even close to those of the US or any developed nation. Like Joey stated they are raised to hate America and will GLADLY use their life to take out even one of our citizens, no matter what age or gender. Your talking about a sect of people who do nothing all day but figure out ways to harm the American way of life and kill as many people as possible.

I honestly dont give a F*** if we torture for fun or for information. Trust me I as a civilian could be over there and if captured would be tortured so that some scumbag could say that he tortured an American.

[Silver Fox]

I never had any intention of converting any baby rapers or killers to our side either, but I got confessions from over 80% of them that didn't invoke Miranda right away, and few did. When they left the interrogation room, they thought I was their best friend in the world.

As I just posted, these guys were brainwashed once, they can be again.

With all due respect to your interrogation abilities Sarge, it's true, that anyone brainwashed once can easily be brainwashed again.
However, most criminals including child molesters, baby killers and rapists are cowards and aren't dedicated to anything other than a life of crime. After a thorough investigation and getting all the facts and physical evidence available that would likely convince a jury of an accused suspect's guilt many, in fact most will enter a guilty plea rather than face lethal injection hoping that somewhere down the road they'll be released.
I may be wrong, but I don't believe you could go into an interrogation room with a fanatical Islam terrorist dedicated to a cause, who despised you and all you stood for, and then come out with him thinking you were the best friend he had in the world.

[CityOfChicago]

We'll never see such a make believe video of what you descibe COC as waterboarding, if ever used by an Islam fanatic, would be done only as a minor punishment to their wives and kids when they're disobedient and naughty.
Our enemy believe in a harsher method of interrogation and punishment for us, as we've already viewed on live TV... of psychotic islam killers hacking off the heads of Americans with what appeared to be dull knives, than holding it up by the hair of the head grinning like hyenas. And, before this thing is over we could be seeing a lot more heads being sawed off.
We're not creating new terrorists, as they all came into this world despising us with a passion.

I knew this comparison would be brought up. It's a way to escape the original question. This isn't a comparison of evils. I've already said these people are animals and we should seek them out in every orner of the glode and kill them. But what you're saying is that it doesn't matter what we do to them because they do worse. That wasn't the point, nor was it the purpose of my question. Would we be incensed if we discovered that US soldiers were deing waterboarded in order to get intel on US ops from them?

Look, after Sept 11 we were behind the 8ball - no doubt about it. We did the waterboarding to play catch up. We should never have gotten in a position to have had to play catch up in the first place, but there it is. I disagree with it, and don't think we need to do it again. It sounds like we haven't since. So what's the argument we're having here? Should we do it again? I don't think we'll need to. We've tightened up the ship since the end of '01. I don't understand why we continue to discuss this issue. We've obviously achieved significant results in the GWT over the past 7.5 years, and that sounds like it happened without the boarding. If we're succeeding without it's current use, then just throw it out as a tactic all together and move on.

RDS - my comment about conversion was not in response to anything you said. I was just making the general comment that, since we know these fanatics cannot be converted, there are only two options of what to do with them: kill them on the field or lock them in very small rooms.

[retdetsgt]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe you could go into an interrogation room with a fanatical Islam terrorist dedicated to a cause, who despised you and all you stood for, and then come out with him thinking you were the best friend he had in the world.

You don't do it in one sitting, Bill.

The problem is, when you look at any person as subhuman, you will never get anywhere with them. That's why a lot of people have trouble interviewing child molesters, etc. You have to look at them as a person with strong beliefs and then start working on that. It's not unlike deprogramming a cult member. The N. Koreans were expert at that during the Korean War. In fact, they gave birth to the term brainwashing and got a lot of cooperation from POW's. And they did it by repetition, not one sitting either. It was a difficult time for those returning. The N. Vietnamese didn't know how so they used torture and didn't get shit from the majority of POW's.

Rather than starting out the conversation with, "Look you piece of shit", you start it off with something like, "I understand why you're pissed". You have to disassociate yourself completely from the crime(s) they committed.

Again, I'm not against waterboarding or anything else as a humanitarian issue, I couldn't care less about them. But if the aim is to get good intelligence, there are better and more effective ways. If someone has the sensation of drowning, they'll tell you anything they think you want to hear to get you to stop. My goal would be to get good intel and waterboarding doesn't seem to me to be the best way.

[CityOfChicago]

First off CoC if they had captured US military they wouldn't torture them for info. They would torture them for fun, then use them for a message sent to their "infidels."

The Mid East is a dirty, third-world country whose morals and liberties are not even close to those of the US or any developed nation. Like Joey stated they are raised to hate America and will GLADLY use their life to take out even one of our citizens, no matter what age or gender. Your talking about a sect of people who do nothing all day but figure out ways to harm the American way of life and kill as many people as possible.

I honestly dont give a F*** if we torture for fun or for information. Trust me I as a civilian could be over there and if captured would be tortured so that some scumbag could say that he tortured an American.

Again, you're working around the original question. Forget the purpose of the waterboarding if it makes it easier for you. It's OK for us to waterboard for "good intel", but bad if it's for fun? Where does this moral relativism end?

Secondly, the Middle East is a region, not a country. And when you say the region is dirty and amoral, you marginalize the entire population. Just like the fanatic killers in the Middle East do to us as a whole.

Be sure to keep your enthusiam for torture out of any LE interviews.

[Silver Fox]

I knew this comparison would be brought up. It's a way to escape the original question. This isn't a comparison of evils. I've already said these people are animals and we should seek them out in every orner of the glode and kill them. But what you're saying is that it doesn't matter what we do to them because they do worse. That wasn't the point, nor was it the purpose of my question. Would we be incensed if we discovered that US soldiers were deing waterboarded in order to get intel on US ops from them?

Look, after Sept 11 we were behind the 8ball - no doubt about it. We did the waterboarding to play catch up. We should never have gotten in a position to have had to play catch up in the first place, but there it is. I disagree with it, and don't think we need to do it again. It sounds like we haven't since. So what's the argument we're having here? Should we do it again? I don't think we'll need to. We've tightened up the ship since the end of '01. I don't understand why we continue to discuss this issue. We've obviously achieved significant results in the GWT over the past 7.5 years, and that sounds like it happened without the boarding. If we're succeeding without it's current use, then just throw it out as a tactic all together and move on.

RDS - my comment about conversion was not in response to anything you said. I was just making the general comment that, since we know these fanatics cannot be converted, there are only two options of what to do with them: kill them on the field or lock them in very small rooms.

Let's drop the whole thing partner!!...You've stated what you believe on the subject and I've stated mine. If I've offended you in any way I sincerely apologize.

[ChevySSP]

I was tortured for my LE interviews. I have to be enthusiastic about it :cool:

[Joeyd6]

That's the company line. I still doubt it..... If you believe everything the government says, I don't care who's in power, I got some property for you.

It's not the company line. Nor am I nut with conspiracy theories. Sounds like Jessie Ventura got into somebodies head a little too much. I don't believe in who is in power, I believe in my country and the government as a whole.

Staff members of both administrations from all parties agree and spoken about such. Funny that there is ONE person leading the way against the fight saying it did not work, who has the power to release memos clarifying the issue, but refuses to declassify the info. Why not? When the U.S. Military staff, CIA staff, FBI staff, DoJ staff, Bush Presidential staff and Obama presidential staff all agree, the information has to be credible. Get thing that many people to drink the cool-aid it impossible in this political environment.

You don't think there are Americans who were raised here that aren't like that? :rolleyes: I've interviewed a few. Read about the Nazi SS and the Russian KGB. They did the same thing and they weren't Islamic nor from the MidEast.

First off we agree there are a few around. But there is some confusion on the issue. They are not the same at all. The Nazi SS and Russian KGB were GOVERNMENT organizations. They took orders and followed them. The military in these countries was a mandatory way of life. They had no choice, conform or die, whether they agreed with the theory or not. When the reign of power ended, they pretty much ceased operation despite a few radicals practicing around the world.

Just when in the last 25 years did the last Nazi SS kill thousands of people from over 100 religious/cultural backgrounds? They have not. And did the Russain KGB kill thousands of people indiscriminately from various countries/religions? No.

The radical Muslims are terrorists, not a military organization. Big difference. They are not forced to join. They are not given orders to follow. They choose to join on their on accord. They follow what they believe Allah is saying.

An a@@hole is an a@@hole, no matter where he was raised or what is religion is. Anyone can be manipulated. As I said, they were brainwashed before, they can be brainwashed again. I doubt they are the brightest bulbs in the box to begin with.

An a-hole may be an a-hole, but not everyone can be manipulated. Thinking that is bad theory. Some people have nothing to gain or lose. What does a senior member of Al-Quad have to loose in an interview? His life? If he is killed he dies and goes to Allah as a hero and is welcomed with virgins and he is seen as a hero. You truly think he cares about going to jail for life? Again he is seen as a martyr for his cause and will continue to preach what he thinks and his cause continues. The only way to make him talk, the only thing that their culture hates is humiliation. And water boarding is humiliating.

And thinking these people are "brainwashed" and can be re-programmed is an error in logic. To be brainwashed, one must have believed "A" first and then changed their mind to think "B." The command structure of Al-Qaeda only knows "A." They never knew a "B" and sure as hell won't believe an American spewing "A" or "B." Thus you have nothing to convert them back to.

And as far as not being the brightest bulb, again, deadly LE assumption: underestimating your opponent. These "dim bulbs" have already planned, plotted and successfully:

1) Defeated the Pentagon, CIA, U.S. Military, Yemen Government, Yemen military by determining where U.S. troops were staying, infiltrating the hotel staff and bombing two hotels in 1992 killing 2 civilians.

2) Defeated the U.S. Government, U.S. Military, and U.S. police forces when Ramzi Yousef bombed the World Trade Center killing 6 and injuring over a thousand people in 1993. (Yousef planned the attack with Omar Abdul-Rahman who was getting the money for the attack from Bin-Laden)

3) Defeated the Philippine Government, Philippine Intelligence Agency (NIKA), and Philippine Airlines when they blew up flight 434 killing one and terrorizing hundreds others.

4) Defeated the Kenya Government, Kenya military, CIA, Pentagon and U.S. Government when they bombed the U.S. Embassy in 1998 killing 214 and injuring thousands.

5) Defeated the Tanzania Government, Tanzania military, CIA, Pentagon and U.S. Government when they bombed the U.S. Embassy in 1998 killing 11 injuring thousands.

6) Defeated the Pentagon, CIA, U.S. Military, Yemen Government and bombed the USS Cole killing 17 U.S. Military men and women.

7) Defeated the Pentagon, CIA, U.S Military, airline security and the entire American population when then downed 4 planes, killing almost 3,000 people and costing this country billions of dollars on 9/11.

8) Defeated the United Kingdoms Government and MI-5 when they blew off some bombs on busses and subway killing 52 people and injuring thousands.

9) Defeated the Algerian government in 2007 when they bombed two locations killing over 15 people and injuring thousands.

Yep...the senior officials of the organization are pretty dim "bulbs!" They have successfully planned and executed and funded 9 attacks in 15 years, killing thousands, injuring thousands, costing the world economy billions of dollars, defeating multiple government and intelligence agencies, but we think they are not that bright?

Not being able to breathe is torture. Having a reason or not is bullshit.

Not being able to breathe is not torture. It is panic that you feel. I know. I have run out air while in the third story of a burning building while being a vollie. I have also as a rescue diver ran out of air underwater during rescue operations. I have been tear gassed at the police academies and could not breathe. It was panic again, I was not tortured. The method the U.S. used does not take away ones ability to breathe. It diminishes it. That lack of full air and the other other physical aspects cause the brain to PSYCHOLOGICALLY believe you are about to die.

Everyone is so dam concerned about what we did to THREE terrorist to elicit information. THREE PEOPLE. THREE KNOWN HIGH RANKING SENIOR MEMBERS OF A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION responsible for thousands of deaths of American military members, law enforcement, firefighters, and off course, innocent civilians. THREE people who by their own accord (along with others and evidence) who are SENIOR al-Qaeda. It did not hurt them, it did not kill them. Yet everyone is so wrapped up in it they have to stop it and Monday morning quarterback it and now call it torture.

Funny thing is I didn't hear crap on this board about peoples heads being chopped off by those under the leadership of these people about how that was torture. I don't hear anything when capital punishment is being used on a cop killer being labeled as torture. I don't hear anything when old sparky lights up in Texas on a criminal who was found to have killed one person. Don't hear anything about the living DWI's every night who kill thousands a years and how those folks tortured their "victims." Yet we care so much about what our CIA does to THREE people who have killed THOUSANDS!