What do you think?

[Sgt. Pepper]

Police Drop Bomb See link for full story
on Radicals' Home in Philadelphia
WILLIAM K. STEVENS / New York Times 14may85
50 to 60 Other Houses in Area Burn
2 People Known to Have Survived Siege

PHILADELPHIA, May 13-A state police helicopter this evening dropped a bomb on a house occupied by an armed group after a 24-hour siege involving gun battles. A 90 -minute shootout this morning came after a week of growing tension between the city and the group, known as Move. Residents in the western Philadelphia neighborhood had complained about the group for years. The only known survivors from within the house were a woman and a child. The fire spread to 50 to 60 other houses in the neighborhood, said the Fire Commissioner, William Richmond. He declared the fire under control about 11:40 P.M.

Aimed to Hit Bunker
The Police Commissioner, Gregore Sambor, said tonight that it was was his decision to drop the charge, a square package of explosives designed to destroy a bunker atop the house and drop it through to the second floor. He said the charge succeeded in eliminating the threat from the roof, but touched off the fire. Steve Harmon. a resident of the area, said: "Drop n bomb on it residential area? I never in my life heard of that. It's like Vietnam."

The Move group, which says it disdains modern technology and materialism and the establishment, was involved in a confrontation with the police in August 1978. One police officer was killed in that shootout. Nine members of the group were convicted on murder charges and are in prison. The group. has been demanding their re-lease. The Police Commissioner said that the authorities did not know whether then: were any bodies in the house.

One Officer Injured
Commissioner Sambor said that one police officer whom he did not identify was bruised in the back by gunfire. "And the only thing that saved him was his body armor," the Commissioner said.

The police said earlier that at least three officers had suffered slight injuries, including smoke inhalation, exhaustion and hyperventilation.

No other casualties were reported, but the whereabouts of some occupants of the house were unknown.

Mayor W. Wilson Goode said this evening that a 9-year-old left the building with a woman, identified as Ramona Africa, shortly after the fire began. The child, who was taken to a hospital, told the police there were four or five adults and four or five children to the house when the bomb was dropped, the Mayor said at a City Hall news conference. The child was not identified, but the police said the woman was in custody.

Leo Brooks, the City Managing Director, said tonight at the scene that one of the first things the authorities wanted t6 do Tuesday was To search the charred area.

A Fire Department officer, who requested anonymity; said- the authorities did not know where the other children were.

Mayor 'Saddened' by Fire

The Mayor said that three armed adults had been in an alley behind the house, where they were firing at the police. He said there were no known deaths and that he was heartened by that, but he was "saddened" by reports that many homes had been destroyed by the blaze spreading from the house that was bombed.

A Fire Department officer at the scene this evening had said houses burned on both sides of the street in the 6200 block of Osage Avenue, where the Move headquarters was situated, and houses in the block behind it on Pine Street.

The Mayor, when asked why the bomb was dropped, said, "It was an attempt to remove the bunker," the structure on the roof of the house.

He repeatedly tools responsibility for the outcome, although he said he had given his department heads complete freedom to decide on the tactics they thought best. "As Mayor of this city I accept full and total responsibility," Mr. Goode said. "There was no way to avoid it. No way to extract ourselves from that situation except by armed confrontation."

Arrived With Warrants

Mr. Brooks, the City Managing Director, said tonight that the police arrived at the house this morning with arrest warrants for four individuals and asked them to come out of the house. He said the police had promised them there would be no firing.

Commissioner Sambor, according to Mr. Brooks, gave them 15 minutes to come out. They refused, Mr. Brooks said, and responded with "vitriolic talk" over a loudspeaker and then started firing.

"We took a significant number of rounds in our positions," said Mr. Brooks.

In the siege this morning, Commissioner Sambor said, the police started returning the fire, with frequent lulls. tie said the Move people refused all overtures of family, friends and clergy to mediate and to attempt to talk them into coming out.

"At no time did the police fire in an offensive posture," he said.

He said the bunker (in the roof had wooden beams and steel plates, and that it would not budget despite the authorities' use of water cannon. Commissioner Sambor said the tomb was dropped to flush out people who were firing at the police. "If you were in a firefight and the opposition held the higher ground," he said, "what would you do?"

Fire Starts to Spread

Fire engulfed the house hit by the bomb and spread to neighboring row houses, but firefighters delayed attempts to battle the blaze for at least an hour out of fear that they would become targets of any surviving members of the heavily armed group.

"There is no question in my mind that from the time the fire started until this time there was a real danger" for the firefighters, the Mayor said at the news conference.

Mr. Brooks said that four people came out of the back of the Move house during the blaze. Two of them were the woman and the child. He said they were with another woman and a man.

The man fired at the police, Mr. Brooks said. He said the police did not return the fire, and the man and the woman disappeared back into the smoke.

Commissioner Sambor said earlier that the police were looking for three armed men who might be in alleys or tunnels dug from under the house.

After the fire broke out, the police reported gunshots from houses behind the one under siege. Police officers kicked down doors and searched houses in the four-block area around the Move group's-house,--which, had been evacuated Sunday after the police began trying to evict the armed group.

The police were acting' to clear the group out in response to neighbors' complaints of filthy conditions in the house and nightlong amplified lectures from Move members.

After the bomb was dropped at 5:27 P.M. the tire .ant thick dark smoke that could he seen throughout the city this evening for two hours after the charge was dropped.

[Joxer]

You'd think the FBI would have learned from their mistake, but it happened all over again in 1993 (Waco). Violent radicals + incompetent federal LE bureaucrats = recipe for disaster

[mcsap]

And the reason for posting this story about an incident from 1985 is...??

[Drew27k9]

And the reason for posting this story about an incident from 1985 is...??

I was wondering the same thing..

[Moose63845]

You'd think the FBI would have learned from their mistake, but it happened all over again in 1993 (Waco). Violent radicals + incompetent federal LE bureaucrats = recipe for disaster

Aparently Janet Reno was a incompetent federal LE bureaucrats, becuase she was the one that issued that order, and the order to storm Elian Gonzalez while negotiations were still ongoing. I really don't consider Reno anything but a cancer on LE, she did more to hurt LE than most any other group or officer has done.

[Sgt. Pepper]

And the reason for posting this story about an incident from 1985 is...??

Read what i asked what do you think was this handled right Why would they use a bomb in a residential area Sorry just because it is old dosen't mean it isn't relevant. With the times we are in today.

[ACS Explorer]

Personally, I think a different method could have been used, my 0.02.

[Toeknee112]

I don't see the relevance...

[txinvestigator1]

Read what i asked what do you think was this handled right Why would they use a bomb in a residential area Sorry just because it is old dosen't mean it isn't relevant. With the times we are in today.

It is a nearly 20 year old incident. It has been studied and studied. Without reading the full report how can we form an intelligent opinion?

This is an absurd thread.

[Sgt. Pepper]

It is a nearly 20 year old incident. It has been studied and studied. Without reading the full report how can we form an intelligent opinion?

This is an absurd thread.

Then add something I am trying to find out more about this maybe a first hand account or something. It doesn’t make any sense to me why they would do this? Burned around 60 homes. If you want to give me grief please do it in PM I am looking for information not criticism.

[Norm357]

Read what i asked what do you think was this handled right Why would they use a bomb in a residential area Sorry just because it is old dosen't mean it isn't relevant. With the times we are in today.

It could have something to do with the whackjobs shooting at the police with machine guns. PC? Hell no but it sure was effective. Are you trying to defend these MOVE terrorists? I can remember when this happened and those MOVE weirdos were a dangerous group.

[mcsap]

Anyone care to take a shot at how Gettysburg was "mishandled" by either the Union or the Confederacy ? I mean it was only 139 yrs ago , kinda recent ancient history ?

[txinvestigator1]

Then add something I am trying to find out more about this maybe a first hand account or something. It doesn’t make any sense to me why they would do this? Burned around 60 homes. If you want to give me grief please do it in PM I am looking for information not criticism.

Are we a bunch of PM whining crybabys? PM is NOT required for persons who disagree with you.

My reply was well within the TOS here for replys.

The answer to what you seek is "WHO CARES"?

[Drew27k9]

Sgt. Pepper, Here is a link that dates back to the first incident that the police had with these animals..A police officer was shot and killed in that incident. I live in the county just outside of Philadelphia and remember this incident very well..

Sponsored links:http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/MOVE

MOVE! is an organisation formed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1972 by John Africa (Vincent Leaphart) and Donald Glassey. It was described by CNN as: A loose-knit, mostly black group whose members all adopted the surname Africa, advocated a "back-to-nature" lifestyle and preached against technology.

Glassey owned a house in the Powelton Village neighborhood of Philadelphia, and his house became the first home base for MOVE. Neighbors began to complain about the sanitation aspects of their back to nature philosophy, and after an armed standoff with Philadelphia's department of Licenses and Inspections, Mayor Frank Rizzo ordered a blockade of the immediate neighborhood, in order to get MOVE members out of the house. The blockade was not successful, and on August 8, 1978, Philadelphia police attempted to clear the house by force.

Every tactical move was telegraphed to the house via bullhorns. One of their first tactics was to turn fire hoses on the house. The police even considered the depth of the basement of the MOVE house and the height of the basement windows, to ensure that nobody would drown if the basement was completely flooded.

Who began shooting is disputed; MOVE claims that they never fired a shot; videotape shows muzzle flashes from the basement windows of the MOVE house. One police officer, James Ramp, was killed. Rizzo had the house demolished the next day. Leaphart and eight other MOVE members were sentenced to prison for the murder.

MOVE moved to a house in west Phildelphia owned by Louise James, a relative of a MOVE member. They continued their back to nature philosophy, and added a new agenda, freeing John Africa (Vincent Leaphart). In a change from their previous tactic of staging protests downtown, MOVE began to pressure their neighbors. The Osage Avenue houses were connected, and their roofs formed a convenient jogging track for MOVE. Neighbors listened to the MOVE physical training program through their bedroom ceilings. Neighbors complained about that, and the public address system that MOVE used for political diatribes, as well as the smell of human and animal waste. Then Managing Director W. Wilson Goode was running for mayor, and the neighbors were convinced that Philadelphia's first African American mayor would be able to reason with MOVE, so they did not press the issue pending the election. Goode was elected in November of 1983. The situation on Osage Avenue did not change.

On May 13, 1985, in a failed attempt to serve arrest warrants on four members of the group, Philadelphia police became engaged in a gun battle at MOVE's communal residence. They eventually decided to drop a bomb on MOVE's rooftop structure alternately described as a "gun turret" and as a purely defensive fortification. The structure was unoccupied at the time. This bomb started a fire which destroyed the entire block and killed eleven people. Ironically, the city's best firefighting equipment had been trained on the rooftop bunker all morning, but "the decision was made to let the fire burn" in the words of police chief Gregore Sambor. 62 houses burned to the ground; only Ramona and Birdie Africa escaped. Six adults and five children in the MOVE house died.

Police initially said they had been fired upon first with automatic weapons, but only a small number of non-automatic weapons were found in the burned-out home. MOVE supporters have described the raid as a revenge attack for the 1978 shooting.

In the aftermath of the catastrophe the city launched a special investigation which found, among other things, that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable." Philadelphia has paid $26.5 million to the victims after various lawsuits.

[txinvestigator1]

Anyone care to take a shot at how Gettysburg was "mishandled" by either the Union or the Confederacy ? I mean it was only 139 yrs ago , kinda recent ancient history ?

Yeah, why did they do that?