West Point

[Safety Steve]

Is it normal or common for people to leave the Military Academy at West Point after two years?
If so, what would be the pros and cons of doing such a thing?

Looking for some thoughts. I posted here so you could comment Tipper!



Be Safe.

[Trip]

Is Sniper Girl thinking of going?????? That would be cool.

Or are you asking because you know someone that's thinking of leaving after two? Well, my honest opinion is that if that person plans on doing the military via another route, it tends to reflect badly on them IMHO because it looks like they were a quitter. Now if they decided, "hey, those military rules are not for me" and they do something as a civilian, it probably won't matter since whereever they graduate as a senior from will be on their resume, and people may never know.

If they are going into law enforcement, I can't speak for law enforcement but to those of us from the military way of life, it kinda seems to indicate "quitter." You have to tell me more of the circumstances though.

[MikeG]

Is it normal or common for people to leave the Military Academy at West Point after two years?
If so, what would be the pros and cons of doing such a thing?

Looking for some thoughts. I posted here so you could comment Tipper!



Be Safe.

Isn't that the the time when a cadet gets to opt out without a service commitment? There was a recent DADT issue with a dropout.

[Safety Steve]

Isn't that the the time when a cadet gets to opt out without a service commitment? There was a recent DADT issue with a dropout.

Thats what I have been told but have brained stormed and could not think of any other reasons. Thanks Mike.


Be Safe.

[Safety Steve]

Is Sniper Girl thinking of going?????? That would be cool.

Or are you asking because you know someone that's thinking of leaving after two? Well, my honest opinion is that if that person plans on doing the military via another route, it tends to reflect badly on them IMHO because it looks like they were a quitter. Now if they decided, "hey, those military rules are not for me" and they do something as a civilian, it probably won't matter since whereever they graduate as a senior from will be on their resume, and people may never know.

If they are going into law enforcement, I can't speak for law enforcement but to those of us from the military way of life, it kinda seems to indicate "quitter." You have to tell me more of the circumstances though.

No, not Sniper Girl. She said she would go Air Force or Marines before Army or Navy. I understand what you have said and think the same. I think I have been thinking about this so hard that it is what it is and nothing more.

Thanks Trip!



Be Safe.

[Trip]

Oh, I'm guessing this may be a candidate for law enforcment. You really need to ask them directly if you can. Maybe it was too rigid a life for them, or maybe they had a problem with authority. I would've been ashamed to have washed out (and leaving an Academy at the 2 year point is the same thing) of any military training, whether it was officer training, survival school, intel school, you name it. Unless they're going into a career field where none of those character traits are important. But even the School of Culinary Arts is run like a boot camp, and wash outs there are looked at the same way. Again it depends.

[Trip]

Ooops, just saw your post. I'll let it rest

[retdetsgt]

Yeah, that happens quite a bit, I guess. We had one guy on my dept. who opted out of the AF academy and another from Annapolis. A doctor I used to go to mentioned to me once that he dropped out of the AF academy after two years too. And it's true that they can leave before their junior year with no commitment. If they drop out after that, they get to become enlisted. The enlisted time used to be 6 years, I dunno what it is now.

I don't see it as a huge black mark against someone. Both cops were pretty good at the job even though they decided the military academy wasn't for them.

[Trip]

Yeah, that happens quite a bit, I guess. We had one guy on my dept. who opted out of the AF academy and another from Annapolis. A doctor I used to go to mentioned to me once that he dropped out of the AF academy after two years too. And it's true that they can leave before their junior year with no commitment. If they drop out after that, they get to become enlisted. The enlisted time used to be 6 years, I dunno what it is now.

I don't see it as a huge black mark against someone. Both cops were pretty good at the job even though they decided the military academy wasn't for them.

In watching or hearing about substantial numbers of military people either quitting or washing out of various training venues over many years, believe it or not, skill is usually not the reason they leave or are pushed. In some cases it's a really good reason, such as a pilot who's claustrophobic and can't pass survival school, or other type of valid reasons. But from the vast number of cases I know about, it usually has more to do with attitude or discipline. I've watched many, many instructors give people chance after chance if the skill was questionable but the attitude was outstanding. Like I said, I've known people who had excellent reasons to quit military training or education, but in my opinion, the majority of the time when someone either voluntarily leaves or is pushed out usually has to do with attitude or discipline. And it could be as simple as they liked the military but didn't have the discipline to show up at 0dark hundred for PT every day, or the discipline to keep the grades up.

But again, I'll caveat there is no way anyone can know without knowing the individual circumstances for each person. And certain requirements of military life aren't relative to law enforcement such as doing PT at 0darkhundred every morning, so that has to go into the formula as well.

I can say as someone who's been managing people inside eand outside the military for many years, there is nothing more important to me than attitude....the rest I can teach them....and if someone has washed out or quit anything they've done, I always want to know why.

[MikeG]

In watching or hearing about substantial numbers of military people either quitting or washing out of various training venues over many years, believe it or not, skill is usually not the reason they leave or are pushed.

I don't believe that's going to be the case with service academies. The terms are outlined going in. These candidates are very competitive. To recruit a 17 y/o academy candidate with multiple scholarships, they want them to know that the decision they make at 17 gets revisited after two years of service. They don't want unmotivated candidates and they don't want second tier candidates whence the option. Separating voluntarily after two years is different than being dismissed by the academy.

It's really no different than someone who signs a 6 year enlistment but the terms include an option to leave active service after 4 years. They aren't quitters because they take the option in their enlistment. They served what they said they would serve.

[Trip]

I don't believe that's going to be the case with service academies. The terms are outlined going in. These candidates are very competitive. To recruit a 17 y/o academy candidate with multiple scholarships, they want them to know that the decision they make at 17 gets revisited after two years of service. They don't want unmotivated candidates and they don't want second tier candidates whence the option. Separating voluntarily after two years is different than being dismissed by the academy.

It's really no different than someone who signs a 6 year enlistment but the terms include an option to leave active service after 4 years. They aren't quitters because they take the option in their enlistment. They served what they said they would serve.

I don't see the enlistment thing and the academy thing as the same at all, Mike. In one the folks are indeed serving what they said they'd serve. In the other, folks have just gotten two free years of expensive education on the taxpayers and quit without any service.

And there are TONS of very well qualified people clamoring to get in the Academies. I'm more interested in the ones who are serious about becoming good officers and staying for the long haul than the athletes who consider it another notch among their many other athletic scholarships, do the minimum time, and not really buy into what the Academy is there for. I'd nominate most any enlisted person that's worked for me over just about any of those "competitive athletes" you're describing. Again, I'm focuing on attitude.

In fact, there are tons of well qualified enlisted people clamoring to get into Academies who would know exactly why they'd be there on day one.

[retdetsgt]

Although I never did it, I suspect that going through a military academy doesn't come close to much else in the military. Boot camp wasn't that big a deal looking back on it compared to OCS. And OCS sure wasn't 4 years of military academy.

The two guys that left the AF academy didn't go into a lot of details other than after two years, they decided that the AF wasn't for them and they declined to make the commitment. Neither expressed it nor from what I know about them, it wasn't because they couldn't take it. I would imagine if you got through the first year, it was a lot easier from then on.

I certainly wouldn't compare it to someone failing to make basic training of any branch.

[Trip]

Although I never did it, I suspect that going through a military academy doesn't come close to much else in the military. Boot camp wasn't that big a deal looking back on it compared to OCS. And OCS sure wasn't 4 years of military academy.

The two guys that left the AF academy didn't go into a lot of details other than after two years, they decided that the AF wasn't for them and they declined to make the commitment. Neither expressed it nor from what I know about them, it wasn't because they couldn't take it. I would imagine if you got through the first year, it was a lot easier from then on.

I certainly wouldn't compare it to someone failing to make basic training of any branch.

Have no idea what your point is. But FWIW, I base my info on having had a lot of friends go through academies, having grown up near the Naval Academy and spent a lot of time on their grounds, having had a family member get a commission to the AF Academy, having had my two roommates in college date midshipmen at the Naval Academy, a close girl friend married to a graduate of the AF Academy, from dozens and dozens of co-workers in and out of the military who graduated from Academies, from at least six bosses who were graduates, but mainly from managing other military people for the ten years I spent in the military myself. Many of the pilots in the flying squadrons I was stationed in were from the Air Force Academy and it was always interesting to watch how effective they were compared to those who were not. I really can't see anyone on this thread who is basing their judgment on what people do in basic training.

[Trip]

Oh and forgot having helped some of my enlisted folks apply for an academy

[retdetsgt]

I really can't see anyone on this thread who is basing their judgment on what people do in basic training.

I have an entirely different view of people who drop out of basic training as opposed to those who decide to drop out of the academy after two years.