Seventy five percent of young people unfit for military service.

[retdetsgt]

The weight standards are fairly strict. Even when I was in, back in the early '90s, it did nto take much to require getting taped for a body fat check.

I suspect it changed with the all volunteer military in the 70's. Perhaps they thought if it was volunteer, they could up the standards, I don't know. But I do know that I saw some real lardasses in basic when I was in that from what the article says, wouldn't be accepted today. But if they were drafting people, maybe they didn't want to let people get out of the draft just because they were fat, I dunno. If they did, I would imagine a number of people would have purposefully chubbed up about the time they hit draft age. But for whatever reason, they make soldiers out of the vast majority of them.

That being said, they weren't terribly lax about letting people slide back either though. If you got back out of shape, they could make your life miserable. I don't recall see any more fat soldiers walking around than you do today.

I also think that the only branch of the service that still maintains a truly hardass physical basic training is the USMC. My daughter went through Navy basic and it sure didn't sound anything like what my Army nor what some of my old Navy friends went through. My daughter wasn't overweight, but she sure wasn't in great physical shape either. The fact she didn't complain about the PT in itself made me wonder...... Later she went into the Seabees who do have a lot of PT and combat training and she definitely told me about that!

I guess the bottom line is that I don't think that in my 64 years, I've seen that much change in the population of young people. (With the exception of the availability of drugs) It seems to be that we like being scared and the media is right there to do it. The swine flu thing is a class example of overhype. I think a lot of this is just media fodder.

[CityOfChicago]

What Colonel are you referring to?

Lt.Col. Brian McCoy.

Not to turn this into a semantical discussion, I would reiterate the statement I made. Regarding places like Somalia, call it what you will - warrior, thug, criminal. The point is, at young ages those people are fighting and shooting, and will rally to do so at the drop of a hat - or the burning of a tire. They grow up in poverty and witnessing brutality. By comparison, Americans live a life of safety; luxury, and expectation. This is a byproduct of our realtive wealth and security as a nation, and is not necessarily a bad thing. Col. McCoy is making the the statement that BECAUSE we are not culturally exposed to brutality - because as a culture we do not value fighting, it is first necessary to recognize this fact, so that rather than fooling ourselves that our young people are inehrently capable of fighting, we can focus on the necessary rigors of training.

[retdetsgt]

Lt.Col. Brian McCoy.

Regarding places like Somalia, call it what you will - warrior, thug, criminal. The point is, at young ages those people are fighting and shooting, and will rally to do so at the drop of a hat - or the burning of a tire.

We have ghettos full of people like that. Not to mention white supremacists, outlaw biker gangs, etc. We probably have a higher percentage of people like that than at any time in our history. And none would make in it a specialized military unit, they don't have the discipline to withstand the rigors. There is a difference between a thug and warrior. A thug takes on the weak and the defenseless, a warrior stands and fights against odds. It's not semantics, it's definition.

I served in combat and with and led a variety of different people from diverse backgrounds. Usually the types you regard as warriors were the last ones I counted on in a fire fight. Most are chicken shit when push comes to shove. How much guts does it take to do a drive by shooting? Or take on an unarmed merchant ship. These people are only "warriors" when they have an overwhelming advantage, like going up against unarmed people. They're the same the world over.

And yeah, we need to train them no matter where they came from. There's a hell of a lot more to being a soldier than being violent.

Just read American history. People have always stepped up to the plate when America was truly under threat. And it wasn't the types you just mentioned that served heroically either. Look at the Congressional Medal of Honor winners and note their backgrounds. The vast majority were average, middle class people with no "warrior" experience.

[CityOfChicago]

Semanitical in the sense; yes you are correct, warrior and thug are different. My contention is that some people (such as in Somalia) live in cultures where violence and hardship are the norm. We do not. You are right about people crumbling under real pressure or under fire. That is my whole point. People who grow up in other cultures are exposed to these hardships and, while it often results in thugish and cruel behavior, they will fight. Our culture of lagresse breeds people who have never had to face such cruelty. In the face of barbarity they can be overwhelmed and freeze or run. This is not a slur against Americans - anyone who knows me knows I would not offer a slur against Americans. But it is a recognition that such culture demands we adequately prepare our fighters for rigors and stresses they have not encountered before.

[retdetsgt]

I see your point to a degree. I do think that training will compensate for most things IF it starts at an early age, 19 being about the oldest.

I see the effect you're talking about more in police work than the military. I grew up in W. Texas in the 50's and early 60's. Every year of public school, I got into at least one fist fight, the last being three weeks before high school graduation. A lot of my peers when I started as a cop more or less had a lot of the same experiences. Consequently, we were never afraid to get our hands dirty when it came to taking some asswipe down.

The last ten years or so I worked, I saw a different breed of cat coming on. That is, people were trained to use something off their belt to handle every violent or even potentially violent situation and to not use their hands. I think some of it is because there's no minimum size for cops now, but also because we are now hiring the sons and daughters of professional people where cops used to come exclusively from blue collar families. Most had never been in a hands on fight in their lives.

And a lot is what you say is true, if a kid gets in a fight at school today, they call the cops. My second grade year, I got in 7 fights, today I would have been expelled. Then they called my Mother and told her to handle it, they were getting sick of my shit. She did, BTW......

[Sgt. Slaughter]

And a lot is what you say is true, if a kid gets in a fight at school today, they call the cops.

Exactly, and it's getting old. That's just another reason why people are calling the cops to address EVERYTHING nowadays. People are expecting arrests and restraining orders against kids. I'm not even talking about high school kids either. If parents would be parents and school officials would actually administrate, that would fix much of the problem.

But I've digressed...my bad.

[retdetsgt]

Exactly, and it's getting old. That's just another reason why people are calling the cops to address EVERYTHING nowadays. People are expecting arrests and restraining orders against kids. I'm not even talking about high school kids either. If parents would be parents and school officials would actually administrate, that would fix much of the problem.

But I've digressed...my bad.

It's true and it is on the original topic of our society and how it views violence. Those same parents have no qualms about letting their kids play Grand Theft Auto or other violent video games or let them watch blood and gore movies, but heaven forbid some other kid punch them on the shoulder.

[Safety Steve]

It's true and it is on the original topic of our society and how it views violence. Those same parents have no qualms about letting their kids play Grand Theft Auto or other violent video games or let them watch blood and gore movies, but heaven forbid some other kid punch them on the shoulder.

Yep, that's why I did not allow my daughter to play video games . I also would not allow one of those movie projector things to be bought for the vehicles. I believe all that crap is nothing but a pacifier for the kids so parent's don't have to deal with them. When we travel we talk and play some of the dumbest games. But we are communicating and still getting to know each other. I make several contacts on the Interstate and see kids in the back seat watching TV or playing a computer game. They never look up to see what is going on (they are so involved into the game or show). I need to slow down. I get fired up when it comes to elderly and kids! Be Safe.

[CityOfChicago]

I see your point to a degree. I do think that training will compensate for most things IF it starts at an early age, 19 being about the oldest.....

I apologize if I've already said this, but the point I'm trying to make is amplified by the situation you find in employment. Most American kids will not get a job in a kitchen, or working at fast food, or min wage maual labor, or a factory, or a warehouse. Their is this clear sense of entitlement that these jobs are 'beneath' them.

It's that attitude I'm speaking of, and it is also reflected in LE and the military. Look at al the noob coppers who ***** about working midnights, weekends, and holidays. They take a job that is a 24/7 gig, then they ***** about the hours. I remember seeing an interview with a woman in the Army who was in Iraq, and she was bitching about being there. She said "I joined the Army to pay for college, not to go to war."

Yes, our nation has rallied behind a cause - but the bombing at Pearl gave us the mental strength to fight a war on two fronts for four years. September 11th rallied the country for about a year, and by the second year people were already bitching about wait lines in the airport.

I suppose I have done a poor job in conveying Col McCoy's ideas here. Basically, the premise is that, sense our young people are not habitually exposed to real violence (not movies and video games) beginning at young ages like youth in other countries are, we are at a disadvantage when we have to fight them. If we rely on a notion that combat will bring out an inherent fighting ability in our people, we are setting them - and us - up for failure. Therefore, our leaders must make training our warriors to the highest standards their otmost and primary responsibility.

I suspect that a similar mindset applied to parenting, teaching, and politics would be beneficial to the nation as a whole.

[retdetsgt]

Yep, that's why I did not allow my daughter to play video games . I also would not allow one of those movie projector things to be bought for the vehicles. I believe all that crap is nothing but a pacifier for the kids so parent's don't have to deal with them. When we travel we talk and play some of the dumbest games. But we are communicating and still getting to know each other.

Rep sent. Good job! I raised my daughters mostly as a single parent and believed the same as you. Video games weren't there, but I limited TV time and encouraged reading instead. I also spent the time at the dinner table (and we ALWAYS ate at the table) talking about different subjects. I can recall even having discussions about US history when they were in high school. But we always had conversations about something when we ate, in the car, etc. I sincerely believe that contributed to the lack of major problems I had with them as teenagers.

I still talk to them on the phone at least a couple of times a week even though they all live at least an hour away.

[CityOfChicago]

I think I talk to my dad about every other day regarding work. It's an interesting dynamic now, because we're at the point where he asks my opinion about as much as I ask his. That makes me feel like a success.

[retdetsgt]

I think I talk to my dad about every other day regarding work. It's an interesting dynamic now, because we're at the point where he asks my opinion about as much as I ask his. That makes me feel like a success.

Enjoy it. I still miss talking to my Dad. Even with me living in Oregon and him in Texas, I called him every Sunday, never fail.

He's been dead for 11 years now and things still come up that I wish I could call him and tell him about.