TARP Police

[MikeG]

TARP Police! Step Away From the Bailout Money!

See link above.

They are 1811's. I figure they are a lot like IRS 1811's. They need guns, badges, and handcuffs. Does the IRS have police cars outfitted with lights and sirens? I can understand maybe a few cars and having a pool of standard police equipment like radios and such. But every agent and every car? Sounds like agency envy to me. Maybe they will soon have SIGTARP SOG.

Maybe I don't get the mission.

I would hope that their normal business would deal with non-violent felonies for which they need to make an arrest. If there is even a question about the subject, I wouldn't think they would need their own equipment. I thought (and would hope) they would just call on local police or other federal agencies that deal with violent apprehensions. That's what I thought the IRS did.

[Joeyd6]

SIGTARP - OIG is a newbie in the OIG world. They are doing MAJOR (larger than other federal agency) white collar fraud cases against the executives and companies that took stimulus money they were not entitled to (and lied), or misused such, or plain out stole it. The cases against folks are in the BILLIONS and due to new laws, if you steal stimulus money, there are minimum jail sentences of 10+ years for some, even if they just lied. HUGE CASES that the press has buried to make the President look good.

That being said, as full federal agents, just because somebody is white collar crime does not make them dangerous. A perp facing ten years + and who just stole $1 million from the government is in more trouble than a guy who just robbed the bank on the corner and ran with $5,000. The rich can be more dangerous than an average street crook at times, as they usually tend to be a little smarter, and have the financial means to try to beat you at your own game.

They need all the toys they get. And quite frankly, with 45 investigators for the whole United States, I think we are getting a good bang for buck! The FBI has 4,000 in NY City alone and has no time to work anything other than terrorism cases right and don't even have 100 arrests this year.

As for the cars, they can do what a lot of fed agencies do. Portable lights. I have two in my car (front and rear), and we all have sirens installed. While many don't think feds needs lights, there are plenty of times we do. I have done more arrests at a "traffic stop" in a safe place I like and control than at a house or business.

As for calling other to help you arrest somebody in the federal world? I have never heard of that unless we were chasing a fugitive and we used the USMS Task Force, which many of our folks are on. You work the case, you get the arrest warrant, you and your folks arrest the perp. In NY or NJ, if I have a federal arrest warrant, a local/state cop has no legal authority to execute or arrest such. They can stand next to me for a numbers game, but they can't do jack. Every agency nabs their own, sometimes with the assistance of the USMS Fugitive Task Force. We don't farm anything out.

[MikeG]

How does the IRS work? I expect SIGTARP 1811's to make arrests, execute search warrants, etc. I guess I just don't see them making high risk arrests. Anyone who they would suspect would commit violence I would think would be better dealt with by people that deal with violent offenders (the same as IRS 1811's). For that reasons, I would separate white collar crimes from person crimes like robbery. I know that's not a 100% predictor for how the arrest will go so they need personal protection and training. Even the "numbers game" is good because assault or resisting arrest is still a state/local crime. They might not be able to execute the warrant but they can help in a fight which is why they are there.

I thought federal arrest warrants went the same way as any other felony warrant meaning that local police can take them into custody once the warrant is verified. If a local officer pulls over a person for a traffic infraction, don't federal felony warrants come back in a wants/warrant check and they can arrest that person on the warrant? I thought it would be even easier than out-of-state warrants since feds usually have a local presence and there is no worries about paying for the return.

I would also want patrol officers that make traffic stops all the time to make traffic stops for arrests too. It just seems safer. Seriously, I wouldn't want an 1811 that spent their career building white collar criminal cases for US attorney, and hadn't made a traffic stop since the 1811 academy, to make a traffic stop to arrest someone. The traffic stop might be the safest option so getting a local patrol officer to initiate it might be a good plan (or even a federal agent that does more traffic stops) but it just seems scary to me to put them in those situations. Even things like the radio, a local patrol person uses it all the time and can get help quickly as well as monitor it as second nature- but it seems like a SIGTARP 1811 may only use the radio for very specific instances to coordinate an arrest. It's not just SIGTARP either. I wouldn't expect USMS to try and build tax evasion cases without IRS 1811's being involved. Nothing against the USMS, but the IRS guys will know what strategies, laws, etc, work to get convictions because they do that every day. Maybe the larger agencies can have specialists in every field, but with just 45 agents, I can't imagine they would be able to cover all areas necessary to be safe in every scenario. I'd rather have them learning and studying current financial situations and learning how frauds are being committed in this day and age so they can detect and prosecute them. Keeping them trained up on pursuits, emergency vehicle operation, radio protocols and procedures, etc ,etc seems like a lot of overhead. Just my opinion and I'm not a LEO.

I would think portable lights like you have and handheld radios that are "pool" use or even shared with other agencies so they have similar/up to date talk groups, software, etc. I don't know what the IRS 1811 equipment list looks like but they seem that they have a similar function.

[Kimble]

Mike,

I realize that you're probably just curious about how things work and are simply interested in how SIGTARP works, however, outside of the explanation given by Joey you've asked questions in your second post that are clearly asking about police tactics. This is the second time I've had to close one of your threads for asking for specifics about police tactics, and also the second time I've had to warn you to refrain from doing so. We do not discuss law enforcement sensitive information/police tactics in the public forums (and details about why 1811's would/would not effect a traffic stop for the purposes of arrest is an example of stuff that will not be discussed publicly).

I hope to not have to warn you a 3rd time about this, as I will have to escalate my response the the situation if it happens again. I understand you're curious and interested in the subject, but please be mindful of *what* you're asking, and if it's inquiring about tactics that should not be discussed in an forum viewable to anyone in the general public (to include gangbangers and others on the other side of the law with internet access), let common sense guide accordinly.

Regards.

[Joeyd6]

How does the IRS work?

Same way every federal agency does....you go arrest your perp, no matter who they are or what they have done.

I expect SIGTARP 1811's to make arrests, execute search warrants, etc. I guess I just don't see them making high risk arrests.

Every arrest is a risk. And every 1811 out there is making high risk arrests every day. I am working drugs, a homicide case, multi-million dollar theft, benefit fraud, ATF violation cases, etc.... All have "professionals" involved and all have "perps." All involve guns and weapons. Just because they have "Doctor" in front of their name and work for the government does not mean they are any less dangerous. Most local and state LE have no clue about it and lump everyone into their FBI image. For example US Education OIG was in the news for getting shotguns. If anyone spent ten minutes looking into their cases, they needed a lot more than shotguns for their typical case. Same with HHS-OIG.

Anyone who they would suspect would commit violence I would think would be better dealt with by people that deal with violent offenders (the same as IRS 1811's).

What do you mean? When IRS 1811's have a violent subject, they go get them themselves just like every other federal agency. They do not call in locals or SWAT or anyone else. You handle your own crap.

Even the "numbers game" is good because assault or resisting arrest is still a state/local crime. They might not be able to execute the warrant but they can help in a fight which is why they are there.

If the state and locals are there on case, they have been invited in and are working a joint investigation, or are there for show only until the crap hits the fan. In fact, there was a law just passed that allows certain fed agencies to help others when they are short bodies for an operation when that agency has no nexus to play. Local and state cops can't play on a federal arrest warrant in "hopes" something can happen and they can get involved.

I thought federal arrest warrants went the same way as any other felony warrant meaning that local police can take them into custody once the warrant is verified.

Nope. They go back to the arresting federal agency, are interviewed, fingerprinted, photographed, taken to the US Marshals, booked and then you wait for their arraignment. There are no local/state PD's involved if they are arrested on federal charges.

If a local officer pulls over a person for a traffic infraction, don't federal felony warrants come back in a wants/warrant check and they can arrest that person on the warrant?

No, they detain until a federal LEO gets there and then takes them to federal court for processing.

Seriously, I wouldn't want an 1811 that spent their career building white collar criminal cases for US attorney, and hadn't made a traffic stop since the 1811 academy, to make a traffic stop to arrest someone. The traffic stop might be the safest option so getting a local patrol officer to initiate it might be a good plan (or even a federal agent that does more traffic stops) but it just seems scary to me to put them in those situations.

We are well trained and a 1811 doing a stop is just as safe as any other cop. I have thousands of car stops under my belt from my NYPD days. I am fine doing a few dozen a year as a 1811.

Even things like the radio, a local patrol person uses it all the time and can get help quickly as well as monitor it as second nature- but it seems like a SIGTARP 1811 may only use the radio for very specific instances to coordinate an arrest.

Cops need radios to talk. There is more than just an arrest or operation where you need to talk. We talk all day on our radios regarding surveillance, interviews, fugitive checks, accountability, etc... I used my radio six times today (on surveillance; doing a criminal history check of a person I stopped; ran a license plate of a suspicious vehicle hovering around our office; checked to find another LEO close to me when I had to do an unexpected door knock; and locked in my location so they knew where I was during an subject interview.) A radio is not just for special fun. You need them to communicate and do the daily job.

It's not just SIGTARP either. I wouldn't expect USMS to try and build tax evasion cases without IRS 1811's being involved. Nothing against the USMS, but the IRS guys will know what strategies, laws, etc, work to get convictions because they do that every day. Maybe the larger agencies can have specialists in every field, but with just 45 agents, I can't imagine they would be able to cover all areas necessary to be safe in every scenario.

Every federal LE agency can only investigate a matter they have jurisdiction over. So a USMS can't run a tax invasion case. Just like a IRS CID or USPI or USSS agent won't be able to go after a person who lied and then stole SIGTARP money. But that does not mean everyone is not trained to handle all of the parts of police work they need to do on a daily basis.

Keeping them trained up on pursuits, emergency vehicle operation, radio protocols and procedures, etc ,etc seems like a lot of overhead. Just my opinion and I'm not a LEO.

You are looking at this like a penny pinching taxpayer and not like a person who wants a well trained police force. That is not a good view. Since most local cops will never do CPR, should we stop training them in that? Most cops will never use their gun, should we stop training everyone in that? There is a set standard for all LEO's and everyone needs to meet the minimum state and federal standards. That way, we all work together.

I would think portable lights like you have and handheld radios that are "pool" use or even shared with other agencies so they have similar/up to date talk groups, software, etc.

Radio freqs are assigned by the FCC and nobody shares.

I don't know what the IRS 1811 equipment list looks like but they seem that they have a similar function.

IRS-CID is about taxpayer fraud. SIGTARP is about lying/stealing/misusing ARRA money. DEA is about drugs. ATF is about alcohol, tobacco and firearms. ED-OIG is about misuse of education funds/programs. HUD-OIG is about misusing HUD funds/programs and related crimes. The list goes on and on.... Each is an expert at the fraud that results from their agency. Most fed agencies are money well spent. A report from Congress recently released showed that on average, every dollar they spend on an OIG Agent, results in $17 being returned to the government. Not a bad rate of return on a bunch of small agencies (most with less than 100 agents) who are racking up arrests, stopping the loss and recovering penalties.