Why did this happen?

[capnc423]

Your opinion?

[Aussie George]

I don't mean to MMQB and there could be more to it than these clips show, but based soley on the clips.....
Can't comment on laws over there, but down here, it is not an offence to record video or audio in public. I do it every day on the video camera I have on my shirt. It is the size of a cigarette lighter and most people don't even know it is there.

Most phones now have video and audio recording.

As far as getting out of a plain car looking nothing like a cop and pulling a gun with no mention or suspicion of a weapon involved would at least get me a severe talking to by my superiors, but that would also be influenced by a different attitude to guns and different laws down here. I can see that the officer might think that he is at risk of harm if the rider rode at him etc but if I was riding like an idiot like this guy was, and all of a sudden a car swung in front of me, stopped and some random looking guy got out and pulled a gun, I would be thinking road rage well before thinking that he was a cop and I would be trying to get out of there ASAP.

As far as what the rider was doing, I used to ride, and sometimes less than what might be considered legal. He got busted and accepted the ticket. I got busted a few times doing something stupid. I paid the tickets, was always respectful of the officers doing their job and never got any grief, other than a few fines (which I deserved).

As far as the video, it is not an offence down here and I couldn't care less if someone films me. I am professional and have nothing to fear.

And as far as the cop getting out and pulling his gun with no or very little threat to himself, well if my officers did that I would be giving them a lecture on how to pull my foot out of their a$$. If the guy rode off on the officer, would he have shot him? Would that be legal or right? If the guy rode at the officer, well maybe that is a different thing, but in the vid it was quite clear that he was trying to back away.

At that speed I would consider a hip and shoulder into the rider well before shooting him. The rider would be down on the ground in a second and I would still have both hands free to go hands on instead of waving a gun around with no to very little grounds of ever using it. Anyway, a dangerous bluff to call. Not something I can see myself supporting anytime soon.

[capnc423]

Very informative, thanks for the response. That quickly cleared my mind up. Thanks again.

[MikeG]

I'm more of a cynic. this case was actually decided in Sept. and the motorcyclist won.

Bringing the charges was win/win for the police though (minus the short term publicity). Maryland's two party wiretap law is what they used to go after Linda Tripp when she recorded Moncia Lewinksi.

But here's the cynical part: I think the police benefit from a single party consent law (or even weakening the two-party consent law). Here in AZ the police often have victims call the perpetrators and get them to confess while being secretly recorded. In a single party consent state, that's legal. In Maryland it would be problematic I think. By turning it around and losing, the police now have precedent for making their own recordings in the same manner as the motorcyclist. They win either way.

[scott715us]

Very old news..

[greg72982]

I don't think you can honestly comment on whether the trooper was justified in having his gun out without getting his side of the story...

[Aussie George]

I don't think you can honestly comment on whether the trooper was justified in having his gun out without getting his side of the story...

Only basing my comments on the vid. As I said there might be more to the story...however it seems a little hard to rationalise why you would draw on a guy on a motorbike unless there was some real threat. And he had his hand on his gun before he even got out the car and the guy on the bike was backing away pretty well straight away.

Personally I would rather have both hands free to fend him off if he accelerated towards me or to help break my fall if I jumped out of the way.

I would like to see the justification of pulling your gun in those circumstances...based soley on what is on the vid.

[MikeG]

Only basing my comments on the vid. As I said there might be more to the story...however it seems a little hard to rationalise why you would draw on a guy on a motorbike unless there was some real threat. And he had his hand on his gun before he even got out the car and the guy on the bike was backing away pretty well straight away.

Personally I would rather have both hands free to fend him off if he accelerated towards me or to help break my fall if I jumped out of the way.

I would like to see the justification of pulling your gun in those circumstances...based soley on what is on the vid.

The motorbike is a deadly weapon. I think the justification is easy to articulate.

You seem to be discussing tactics, though, not justification. It's hard to discuss tactics without knowing what resources he had. If he didn't have any less lethal options, threatening deadly force and officer presence might be his best tactical choice given what the subject had available. I think I would be more interested in knowing how far away a fully marked patrol car and officer in regulation uniform was when he decided he needed to intervene. I can't second guess his decision but if I were his supervisor I think I would want to know that and put it in context with officer safety.

Not a LEO, jsut my 0.02.

[greg72982]

The narrator in video 1 said he was in an unmarked car. I think it was his POV. There were no emergency lights flashing and I see no reason they wouldn't be on if he had them.

[RoadkillStewie]

I think I would be more interested in knowing how far away a fully marked patrol car and officer in regulation uniform was when he decided he needed to intervene. I can't second guess his decision but if I were his supervisor I think I would want to know that and put it in context with officer safety.

about 10-20 feet when he puts the handgun away...

previous thread, Motorcycle Speeder Charged With Felony For Posting Traffic Stop

[oscarmitre]

Just like to back up Aussie George on this one. In Australia, I would think in all jurisdictions in this country, the copper would be in it up to his eyeballs. Different countries, different cultures, very different policing issues and context which I need to emphasise to say that I'm not nitpicking, just letting you know that in Australia, for the aforesaid reasons, it would have not been good for the cop.

[Aussie George]

The motorbike is a deadly weapon. I think the justification is easy to articulate.

You seem to be discussing tactics, though, not justification. It's hard to discuss tactics without knowing what resources he had. If he didn't have any less lethal options, threatening deadly force and officer presence might be his best tactical choice given what the subject had available. I think I would be more interested in knowing how far away a fully marked patrol car and officer in regulation uniform was when he decided he needed to intervene. I can't second guess his decision but if I were his supervisor I think I would want to know that and put it in context with officer safety.

Not a LEO, jsut my 0.02.

The motorcycle is only a deadly weapon when the cop gets out of his perfectly safe vehicle and stands in front of the bike. If the bike is so dangerous, then dont get out of the car. If the guy needs to be stopped that bad, knock him off the bike with your car. Sure there might be some chance the guy is seriously hurt by knocking him off, but a bullet is certainly going to do more damage.

I know that down here if I had to use lethal force to control a situation I have to have no other option. And this guy had plenty of other options.

[MikeG]

The motorcycle is only a deadly weapon when the cop gets out of his perfectly safe vehicle and stands in front of the bike. If the bike is so dangerous, then dont get out of the car. If the guy needs to be stopped that bad, knock him off the bike with your car. Sure there might be some chance the guy is seriously hurt by knocking him off, but a bullet is certainly going to do more damage.

I know that down here if I had to use lethal force to control a situation I have to have no other option. And this guy had plenty of other options.

I was only putting it in context of justification for threatening lethal force. If he's not justified, then it's a crime of assault. I think he could articulate justification and therefore this wouldn't have been a crime. I'm not even sure that it even qualifies as threatening lethal force.

The next question is tactics, decision making and policy. I agree with you that there is a lot more questions about that. I don't know that I have enough info about what he was trying to stop to make the decisions that he did. I'm sure his supervisors would want to know though. The departments I am familiar with generally don't do traffic stops off-duty or in unmarked cars or out of regulation uniform. Circumstances would dictate whether it was appropriate to intervene the way he did. Certainly a belief that he was an imminent threat to others would justify intervention.

[MikeG]

about 10-20 feet when he puts the handgun away...

previous thread, Motorcycle Speeder Charged With Felony For Posting Traffic Stop

I didn't pick that up before (the state trooper right there). I think he was fine then. It looks like the motorcyclist was backing up trying to avoid the SP that was right behind him. He threatened deadly force to prevent a felony offender from escaping and it doesn't look like he initiated the stop. I think he's fine. I was under the impression that he initiated the stop but that doesn't appear to be the case.

[tcop733]

Using your police car to knock a guy off his bike would be more of a threat than displaying your service weapon, IMO.