Armed FFDO relieved of firearm after pointing out security inconsistency at airport

[MikeG]

He pointed out how our favorite revolver fan gets on the tarmac.

See link
Sacramento-area pilot punished for YouTube video | News10.net | Sacramento, California | News

[Norm357]

At the same time as the federal marshals took the pilot's gun, a deputy sheriff asked him to surrender his state-issued permit to carry a concealed weapon.

I would have told the Deputy to beat feet or arrest me. This is a crystal clear case of government harassment. His lawyer is going to have a field day with this and both he and the pilot are going to wind up rich.

[MikeG]

I would have told the Deputy to beat feet or arrest me. This is a crystal clear case of government harassment. His lawyer is going to have a field day with this and both he and the pilot are going to wind up rich.

It's California. His permit is probably predicated on having FFDO status. 6 officers to retrieve a pistol seems a bit much for an action that appears entirely administrative. The follow-on article said he resigned his FFDO commission and that ened the investigation.

Now if that doesn't say it isn't about security, I don't know what does. If they were concerned about his posting, they would have just said he is no longer allowed in the secure area. TSA however has said that this action means he can't have a pistol in the cockpit (fireax is okay) even though he has committed no firearm violation.

[Reconciler]

I appreciate his point, but I guess I'm a bit concerned with the public nature in which he presented it. A pre-planned statement instead of a stur of the moment youtube video? Just a thought. Truthfully though I suppose it doesn't really matter. Any terrorist with an ounce of common sense would already know about the security flaws he addressed anyway.

As far as his 6 visitors...that has the usual "pointless government hype" written all over it. They obviously want us to think this is a huge deal so why not send in the local swat team to execute a breach, bang, clear :( Seriously, what would be so hard about simply calling the guy into the office and asking him to turn over his gun/permit etc. until the situation is cleared up? That is assuming he did something worthy of having them confiscated to begin with.

[Joeyd6]

This pilot was dumb. At FFDO training they tell you the program is run by the FAMS and you sign several non-disclosure docs. You can not talk about tactics or techniques of security of TSA. Since this guy is exempt from from all the security checkpoints as a FFDO, and he talks about TSA airport techniqes, he is deemed a security risk and in violation of the non-disclosure agreement. They figure if he talks about that then he will discuss FFDO info which is deemed classified. Thus the FAMS going to pick up his credentials and gun. Not sure why the communist state of California needs to send six though. One would have been fine.

I have said it before and will say it again: the FFDO program is a complete waste of taxpayer money.

[Norm357]

So I am still good to talk about how crappy airport security is at cargo areas?


Cause it sux.

Maybe I should make youtube videos. Do you think they will revoke my SIDA badge?

[basher52]

So I am still good to talk about how crappy airport security is at cargo areas?


Cause it sux.

Maybe I should make youtube videos. Do you think they will revoke my SIDA badge?

Norm, unfortunately YES. We all know the system has huge holes. I'd try fixing them first. There has to be an outlet or internal mechanisum to address these concerns...And, there are MANY. Cargo, as you know, is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think he would have been better off seeking out a few sympatetic politicians rather than going public on YouTube. The politicians would go to the media rather than the pilot, thus isolating him somewhat. Just my 2 cents.

[MikeG]

This pilot was dumb. At FFDO training they tell you the program is run by the FAMS and you sign several non-disclosure docs. You can not talk about tactics or techniques of security of TSA. Since this guy is exempt from from all the security checkpoints as a FFDO, and he talks about TSA airport techniqes, he is deemed a security risk and in violation of the non-disclosure agreement. They figure if he talks about that then he will discuss FFDO info which is deemed classified. Thus the FAMS going to pick up his credentials and gun. Not sure why the communist state of California needs to send six though. One would have been fine.

Yeah, I get that part. Regardless of the video, I would have thought it would be more secure for them to continue having him with the creds and recurrent training and background checks as well as logging each and every time he flew (I don't know if FFDO follow the same NLETS procedure as LEOs flying armed). He's still a pilot and needs to know security procedures that affect the airplane regardless. He will definitely know the location of every armed person on the flight. Part of his being Pilot-in-Command will expose him to those procedures. In addition, he needs to know how his armed crew and armed passengers are going to respond and what he can expect as PIC. I have no idea how pilots of commercial airliners are briefed on this but it must happen. It would interesting to see what the difference between PIC exposure to tactics and techniques and the FFDO program.

As for FFDO program, I think I'd rather have armed cockpit then air marshalls on every flight. I would hope they coordinate FAMS with FFDO flights so we don't end up with planes with 3 armed people and flights with zero. FFDO should be government cost reducer, not an addition. But I suspect it's not. The FFDO training seems a lot more formal and trackable than the LEOs Flying Armed training requirement.

[Joeyd6]

A FAM on flight can save the plane and the lives of every passenger. A FFDO can only save the plane and himself. If a threat is on board with your wife and kids, you want a FAM who can handle the issue and save their life or a FFDO who is sitting behind an armored and reinforced door by law he can not open and thus let the terrorist kill your wife and kids but land the plane with 300 dead bodies and then crawl out their escape window. Trust me.....you want a FAM with 16 weeks of training in that passenger compartment and not a FFDO with 40 hours of training in the cockpit.

[Buffboy]

Until the early 1960s(don't remember the exact time) US commercial pilots of aircraft that carried US mail were required to carry a pistol. Considering almost all commercial flights carried mail this meant a lot of armed pilots. While not required after this point, this practice extended until 1987 when pilots were banned from carrying. At no time in these 60+ years was qualification or training a requirement. How many planes were lost to this original program? None.

The FFDO program restrictions to the pilots are all about control and discouraging participation, not about safety, as is almost all TSA nonsense. Nothing in that video was news to me, a small county deputy in the wilds of South Dakota. Secret my ***, if I knew about all this, everyone with half a brain in the rest of the world does too. It's all an extra expensive theater that does no better job than the airlines did with their people before 911. Remember the 911 hijackers broke no travel rules until they took over the planes. In fact those "don't rock the boat, be a nice sheep and it will be over soon" rules were the very reason the 911 hijackings worked in the first place. The TSA has upgraded BANS to add giving up your 4th amendment rights and this is working on the 1st.

This was a TSA sized version of YMRMA style harassment. This kind of thing never goes over well in court. Norm is right, if this goes in front of a jury the guy's gonna take millions from us (via the government) in the lawsuit.

[Joeyd6]

This kind of thing never goes over well in court. Norm is right, if this goes in front of a jury the guy's gonna take millions from us (via the government) in the lawsuit.

He ain't getting a penny. He signed his rights away to speak about ANYTHING related to TSA operations, policies or procedures (which all aiport security falls under) when he arrived at FFDO camp. They have his initials after every statement and at the bottom of the form. He waived his Constitutional rights to be a part of the pogram. He agreed to the non-disclosure agreement and what he did violates it.

Just like a perp can't sue you after he signs miranda, a pilot can't sue the G when he voluntarily signed a non-discloser and violated it. The program ain't to blame here. Whats to blame is a dumb pilot, who has a free pass to bypass security, and signed an agreement not to talk about security, film a checkpoint, and then post such with is commentary about such.

How about an active USSS agent talking about a detail to protect the President? Or a DEA agent talking about issues with buy & busts? It don't happen once you sign away your rights. We all know who they are and what they do. The pilot is dumb, his rights were not violated and he is no martyr.

[Big Sexy]

Until the early 1960s(don't remember the exact time) US commercial pilots of aircraft that carried US mail were required to carry a pistol. Considering almost all commercial flights carried mail this meant a lot of armed pilots. While not required after this point, this practice extended until 1987 when pilots were banned from carrying. At no time in these 60+ years was qualification or training a requirement. How many planes were lost to this original program? None.

Ever heard the term, apples and fried fish?

No planes were lost during the original program, because terrorists weren't attempting to commit suicide. Not because random untrained, unqualified pilots may or may not have a pistol, due to the presence of U.S. mail.

FFDO program restrictions to the pilots are all about control and discouraging participation, not about safety, as is almost all TSA nonsense. Nothing in that video was news to me, a small county deputy in the wilds of South Dakota. Secret my ***, if I knew about all this, everyone with half a brain in the rest of the world does too. It's all an extra expensive theater that does no better job than the airlines did with their people before 911. Remember the 911 hijackers broke no travel rules until they took over the planes. In fact those "don't rock the boat, be a nice sheep and it will be over soon" rules were the very reason the 911 hijackings worked in the first place. The TSA has upgraded BANS to add giving up your 4th amendment rights and this is working on the 1st.

The FFDO program should be restricted. There are pilots, who though qualified to fly an aircraft, aren't qualified to carry a firearm. Much like wannabe cops, there are pilots who are wannabe FFDO's. They want to carry said pistol for the "image".

It's the same reason they argued they needed badges, for identification purposes. As Joey has already pointed out, they're locked into the cockpit with the firearm and will not be leaving the cockpit to come save the day. Thus, to whom dod they need the badge to identify themselves too? The onboard Fams? The Fams are aware that the FFDO's are there, before the FFDO's are aware of any Fams. Is it to show to the TSA officers? Why? Aren't the creds sufficient? Perhaps its for showing at the bar or perhaps to cops when they're speeding or something.

When BIG was a Fam he remembers arguing with an FFDO who was convinced he was a federal law enforcement officer, equal to BIG. When BIG informed him BIG had been trained to land the aircraft and had a whole 8 hours of training, he argued BIG wasn't qualified as a pilot. To which BIG responded, "How's does qualifying on a range qualify you as an LEO?

Asa far as your 4th Amendment rights being violated, BIG has a short answer. If you don't like it, don't fly. There's always the train, the bus, a rental or your personal vehicle. Flying is not a right. Flying isn't even a privilege. Flying is a decision and if you don't like the security, you can decide not to fly.

This was a TSA sized version of YMRMA style harassment. This kind of thing never goes over well in court. Norm is right, if this goes in front of a jury the guy's gonna take millions from us (via the government) in the lawsuit.

See the above post by Joey. It more than refutes this argument.

[Buffboy]

I agree the guy is an fool and fully deserves to get his FFDO credentials pulled. He signed the agreements and he violated them. I also think he was fool for ever agreeing to sign such. After congress mandated it, TSA did everything they could to destroy any hope of the programs' success because it doesn't fit their mold. It's working. I still say "if" it goes in front of a jury, he will likely collect.

You are all worried about a pistol in his hands, like that is some omnipotent weapon. What is the the weapon of (possible) mass destruction on any airplane? Answer: the controls. Who controls that? The pilot. It is well within his ability to kill or maim anyone on that airplane with him (including any FAM on it) with no injury to himself if he so chooses. This has been the case since the passenger plane first came into being. Any pistol is a distant second in that power game. I'm not saying FAM, the FFDO program or the "not really a program" before it is, or was, safer. I'm not saying security in and of itself is a bad thing. I think the FAM program a good one but massively underused.

I am saying the "expert" security plans before 911 were directly responsible for its success. B.e A. N.ice S.heep and it will be over soon. I am also saying that the TSA is no safer than the previous system even after giving up all your rights and never will be. With the previous system you had a way to redress a grievance with a screener or a procedure. Airlines are covered under civil law. With the TSA you have no civil rights and no recourse. How do you get on a "no fly" list? How do you get off it if there is a mistake? Where are the criteria? Who is on the "no fly" list? Answer: It's a secret.

What reasonable suspicion, what probable cause, what court has jurisdiction in addressing a grievance? Answer: None of the above is necessary because while it is a government (quasi LE) agency, it doesn't seem to have to follow civil law or criminal law procedures with the caveat that because it is doing it for a private industry, it doesn't have to follow either rules. I'd be willing to bet TSA does no better detecting contraband than the screeners of the private system they replaced but that's a secret too. The TSA has failed in some very public ways, the passengers saved the airplanes and themselves, just as they saved whatever target flight 93 had. That's what will likely stop the next one too, if it is stopped. Meanwhile we get to take off our shoes and can't take a soda through security.

"Asa far as your 4th Amendment rights being violated, BIG has a short answer. If you don't like it, don't fly. There's always the train, the bus, a rental or your personal vehicle. Flying is not a right. Flying isn't even a privilege. Flying is a decision and if you don't like the security, you can decide not to fly." Done. 7 years ago, and no, I had no issues going through any screenings on any airline flights before that. I decided I wasn't going to give up my civil rights to a government agency for the privilege of giving my money to an airline. When I've flown since, I did it myself or chartered.

TSA is now saying they have "authority" over chartered flights and rail travel, plans for airport style security points are already in the pipeline for rail. Soon they will claim "authority" over bus travel, then they will say they have "authority" over your ability to buy or rent a car. This is not about safety or security, this is about unchecked control. BANS is back, bigger than ever and I'm not falling for the illusion.

[Big Sexy]

You're a pilot?? Wow!! Big never would have figured that one out by the tone of your posts.

TSA = Transportation Security Administration. The key word here is TRANSPORTATION. It isn't the Airport or Airline or even Airplane Security Administration, but the TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION.The last time BIG checked his Illuminati Handbook, which was apprioximately 3 minutes ago, buses and trains were transportation.

And TSA isn't just now claiming they have the authority, they've always had the authority, they just never have had the bodies or infanstructure. Way back then, when BIG was a Fam, there was toalk of expanding out to the trains and buses. Nothing new to see here, keep it moving people.

If a pilot is ndeed suicidal to crash a plane, he needs to not be flying, in addition to not possesing a firearm. Besides, how did pilots being locked behind a door with a firearm get turned into the pilot crashing the plane into the ground? If you can't at least stay on topic or at least refrain from going to extremes, this will be a short discussion.

[retdetsgt]

I'm no fan of TSA as I'm demonstrated many times, but this guy was an idiot.

Messing with a federal agency is dumb and the more powerful the agency, the dumber it is. And right now, TSA is in all its glory.

I've a long history of poking sticks at gorillas, but even I know when to shut up. It used to be that I was more fearful of the IRS than anyone else (I've seen them in action), but I'm not about to give lip to anyone in TSA. There is no way anyone will win any battle with them, period. Whether you're right and they're wrong is always going to be immaterial. And this guy of all people should have known that.