In re: "Is it rude to..."

[Penta]

Okay, I'm not a LEO, so putting this here. I may have asked this before, but in my defense, it seems like someone approached the topic in a way I didn't think of.

In the original topic, it seems pretty clear that asking for a discount is a no-no in most agencies - and that even if it's not against policy it's a bad idea. Totally agreed, I can see where that's coming from.

What if you're not asking, though, but instead the LL/building super/rental agent brings it up themselves? To someone like me, naive as I may be, it seems pretty easy to stumble into an awkward position:

Them: "So, what is it that you do?"

You: "I work for the city." (Or "I'm going to start working for the city." for those moving in before they start.)

Them: "As what?"

Now here's the problem. I can't be the only person (maybe I'm nosy though, it's a family habit) who would naturally, in their shoes, ask "As what?" Similarly, I can't be the only person who'd probably be conflicted about lying, in the prospective LEO renter's shoes, especially since it's not like most police work is done under cover, and the fact that you're a police officer is generally publicly-available info (and in any case, it'll come up when you fill out the stuff for a credit check and income verification).

Anyhow, on we go.

You: "As a police officer."

And here's where it happens! They've quoted you a rate already; Maybe you can comfortably afford it, maybe not.

Them (in that "I'm excited" voice of, say, so many female realtors - My mom's one, I know how so many have it): "Oooh! Just having a police officer around is good! Listen, I'll knock (some number) off your rent."

You didn't ask for the discount, you didn't do anything to suggest it'd be a good idea, but "ta da!", it comes up anyway.

Is it still problematic?

[retdetsgt]

Our regulations say nothing about "asking". It's all about accepting.

If I go in and get a meal and the waitress refuses to give me a check to pay or gives me a check with a discount, I have to leave enough money to pay for the full meal. If she puts the extra in her pocket as a tip, I have no control over that, but I have to pay full price no matter what the merchant says or I can face discipline.

[Penta]

RDS: Thanks for the reply. I think I understand what you're saying. (I'm still unsure how I'd manage the verbal footwork of telling them "no thanks" or just "no" to the discount gently enough that one can still say "yes" to the original offer, but that's a problem with me.)

What fascinates me is that you'd think, if it (whether in rent or other things) were even a vaguely occasional issue (which I figure it possibly is, since agencies have policies on it), agencies would just tell businesses "don't offer it, they aren't allowed to accept it" (such as in something on their website); but, how many agencies even have a website for, say, IA-type functions? It'd take the burden off the officer (they can just say "I can't, period; it's written down, see?"), and it'd be something a confused merchant could just check themselves (and if officers expect a discount, can also say "I can't, period; it's written down, see?").

(And of course, in real RE negotiations, it'd probably be harder to tell why the other person just knocked down the rent, but that's another matter, and I hoped to keep things simple.)

[retdetsgt]

The department has no control over the businesses, just us. Besides, to say that would imply that it's a problem and departments don't want to do that.

Once after I solved a homicide and the killers went to prison, the friends of the victim sent me a gift certificate for a very nice restaurant. I gave it to my Lieutenant to mail back with with an explanation that I couldn't accept it. It was a very nice gesture, but it would be against regulation for me to use it. It was my job to solve that case.

[Penta]

Point well taken.

[Trip]

Once after I solved a homicide and the killers went to prison, the friends of the victim sent me a gift certificate for a very nice restaurant. I gave it to my Lieutenant to mail back with with an explanation that I couldn't accept it. It was a very nice gesture, but it would be against regulation for me to use it. It was my job to solve that case.

Actually, this is a good thread Penta did. The reason why is I've needed help from the fire department twice, and I sent them a bunch of cakes. Both times. Do you suspect fire departments have the same policies you're saying police do? In fact the second time I did the cake thing, it was on July 4th, so I took the cakes to the fire department, but also took some cookies to the police station that is co-located in the same building. (If you wanna hear something funny, it was one of the fire battalian chiefs that suggested it, because he said everyone remembers firemen but no one ever remembers the cops.)

Wonder if I could've been getting folks in trouble?

[Penta]

Always good to get an occasional pat on the head, Trip.

More seriously: Trip's example, though it may apply to fire rather than police, indicates the problems. Beyond those who know cops or firemen, how many people actually know there are such restrictions, that police officers in most agencies can't take, say, free meals or free coffee? (After all, if most people learn about police or fire from TV, just look at how often you see it done there!) The only reason I knew was because my dad worked in federal procurement, which had a lot of the same regulations.

Which is why it seems to me incumbent upon agencies to take the lead, however subtly - it's probably awkward to say no to something like that. It's doubly so if there's a cultural clash - say if the person giving the discount isn't natively American; a lot of cultures, from my memory, it'd be an insult to refuse a gift like that. And let's be honest, it's even odds in a lot of places that the person on the front lines giving the discount isn't natively American. (And even for native Americans, it used to be the prevailing practice, stuff here seems to indicate, as late as 30-50 years ago.)

Thus why you want agencies to do it, whether or not there are problems, I'd think. It's a lot easier to say "See? It's written down on the web, I can't take it" or to have the agency say "No, don't do it." It makes things easier on all sides, and while it might take a bit of explanation why it isn't done, there isn't the awkwardness of trying not to cause insult that might lead people to just accept the discount at issue, regardless of policy.

---

The culture clash issue I think isn't brought up much, isn't thought about much, but it should be more often, IMHO. A lot of the people on the front lines of these industries (not so much real estate, but the restaurant industry is a big one) are from all over the place, in most places. It's probably not understood by most Americans that, in most of the world (I'm thinking of the Middle East and lots of Asia off-hand, but it's probably more than that - Trip, you've been all over the place, it sounds like, am I right?), you don't offer a gift lightly - and you can cause a lot of offense by refusing a gift. At the same time, most non-Americans (I suspect) would be horrified to know that it's considered (by agencies, anyway) as corrupt to offer a discount, or a free meal, or free coffee, to a police officer for the fact of being an officer (or as corrupting for the officer to accept such a discount or freebie) as it is to attempt to bribe said officer at a traffic stop with an envelope full of cash. There are, granted, a fair number of countries where the latter would be accepted practice from police and the former go totally unremarked, but there are plenty of countries where the two don't even remotely equate; the latter is condemned, whereas the former is simply sensible business practice because it makes the place safer or at least appear safer (by pretty much guaranteeing you'll have on-duty police stopping by regularly).

(This was brought home to me over the years by my dad, who (as I mentioned above) worked in federal procurement. Namely, defense procurement, as a civil servant. And over the years, he'd tell stories about the culture clashes brought on by the American view (and American law's view) of these sorts of things and foreign views; whether it'd be football (in the European sense) tickets a contractor was offering when he was in the UK on TDY, or whether it was the "facilitation payments" (basically bribes in every way but name) required for American companies to do business in the Middle East (that he and everybody else in the USG knew happened informally, but that they officially never knew about, is the understanding I got), Americans look a lot more harshly on these sorts of things, outlawing things nobody would think to regulate - heck, if I recall correctly, French businesses can deduct bribes on their taxes!

So, people come to the US from all over the world...They're not going to know American ways on such things. It's not brought up in the glimpses of America they see (TV and movies) - in part because it's become something considered so obvious, I suspect, even though the custom has changed so quickly.)

[retdetsgt]

Actually, this is a good thread Penta did. The reason why is I've needed help from the fire department twice, and I sent them a bunch of cakes. Both times. Do you suspect fire departments have the same policies you're saying police do? In fact the second time I did the cake thing, it was on July 4th, so I took the cakes to the fire department, but also took some cookies to the police station that is co-located in the same building. (If you wanna hear something funny, it was one of the fire battalian chiefs that suggested it, because he said everyone remembers firemen but no one ever remembers the cops.)

Wonder if I could've been getting folks in trouble?

I doubt it. One night in front of a bar when I worked uniform, I was having trouble with a group of motorcycle enthusiasts called the Gypsy Jokers who were about to use me for a lawn dart. A fire truck was returning to the station and saw my predicament. The stopped the truck and four fireman came off of it with fire axes....

I dropped a couple of cases of beer off at their station when that crew came back to work three days later....

[MikeG]

Of the department I am familiar with here, I think the policy is if the discount is given to all public safety, then it can be accepted. I don't think it can be just "law enforcement" discount and technically I think it has to be written. There are restaurants that offer these discounts and they are frequented by law enforcement/fire/ambulance/first responders but mostly law enforcement. I don't know how an officer goes about inquiring for a public safety discount as they are usually known to the department and passed down ahead of time. I have heard of officers just asking if there is a PS discount and they believe it is in policy to ask. That makes me a little uncomfortable if they are in uniform or on-duty but not so much if it's off-duty and it's a "public safety" inquiry without visible intimidation of badge and gun. Heck, Glock offers a "First Responder" discount and there are lots that take advantage and it is not outside of policy to do so. I suspect Glock's "first responder" discount is precisely to allow departments with a similar policy to take advantage of it.

Restaurants offer similar discounts to private corporate employees as well as a marketing tool. Nothing wrong with it. It's a business decision, not quid pro quo.

As a city policy, gifts that exceed $25 in value have to be reported up the chain (I think this is an IRS limit and it gets reported as income, not sure though). I suspect if you received more than $25 off your rent, you would need to report it here and it would need to be approved. There are legitimate programs that give rent/mortgage/price breaks to law enforcement/teachers/etc. I would think the discount would generally have to be available to all that met the criteria (i.e. I would think it would be a problem if the apartment complex only wanted to offer the discount to a single police officer).

I think letting everyone up the chain know is key to keeping it above board. If the gift isn't worth the memo or the officer feels it's a little iffy so they don't want to report it, that's probably the best sign that it's not a good idea. Similarly, they probably should know that being in uniform or identifying as an officer before asking is intimidating and a citizen complaint that an officer asked for a discount should not be unexpected. They should be smart enough to know what looks bad even if it's technically within policy.

It is definitely a no-no to accept any kind of gift in exchange for any act done in an official capacity. Like RDS mentioned, getting a gift certificate from victims family for solving crime would be a no-no. Likewise, if your apartment price break was only available to you because you arrested a person that was robbing people in the complex, you would have to pass on it. It would probably be in officers interest to report the attempted gift/gratuity to his supervisor as well. Something about hell, scorn, and fury comes to mind.

Just my 0.02. I've only read the policy but believe it or not, the policy for police is almost identical to the policy for corporate people. The difference is perception and penalty for infraction. Almost all the examples given, I could apply to my employer and ask if they would be okay with it and it's usually the same answer as what the LEO's say. Most of it seems to be common sense.

[retdetsgt]

It's a sensitive subject with my department mostly because it has a long, sordid history of corruption up through the 60's. The mayor had to testify in front of a congressional committee regarding it in the early 60's. When I came on in 1970, most of it at the street level was gone, but it was still rampant in the command ranks. Kickbacks were common and the usual way of dealing business with us. When we got a new mayor in 1972, he got rid of all the upper command staff and the change was immediate in things like the prices the department paid everything from uniforms to photographic film.

Some old guys told me about the "bagman". Each district had three men assigned as partners, each with different days off. On the one day of the week that all were there, the junior man was the bagman and went around to the businesses and collected tribute that was split not only with his partners, but with the supervisory and command staff. That continued up until about 1965 or so. When I started, police rarely paid for meals or got them for something like 50 cents.

Wisely, they didn't try to completely change the culture overnight. But they did start applying pressure starting about the mid 70's. A big boost came when a restaurant owner went into the commissioner's office with a stack of receipts regarding free meals and drinks he'd been giving one officer. He got mad at the officer for not doing him "a favor" and retaliated. Not much the cop could do, he'd signed all those receipts. Last I heard, he was working as a cement finisher. It was a wake up call to the rank and file though. Guys gradually started insisting on paying for what they got after that.

On a personal level, I don't like it when the public sees a cop or fireman getting food or something else for free or discounted when everyone else pays full price. I appreciate the electric lineman that gets out of his warm bed in bad weather to reconnect my power, but he doesn't get a discount or anything free. To me, it's just a holdover from and still a mild form of corruption. If you can't afford to pay for your food when you're working, then bring your lunch. Lots of other people do. If we want to be considered professionals, we should act like professionals.

[Trip]

- Trip, you've been all over the place, it sounds like, am I right?), you don't offer a gift lightly - and you can cause a lot of offense by refusing a gift. )

Penta, you're absolutely right about how the rest of the world view gifts, and how they view bribes. As for gifts, it is out of sincere hospitality and most foreigners are offended when the gift isn't taken, because taking China for example, they would prepare a huge meal that would cost a week's pay. Foreigners are charmingly sincere in this area, and it has to do with establishing respect and trust. As for bribes though - nothing charming about that - and corruption is pretty prevalent in almost every other country (at least non-western country). But we have been using our money, aid, and influence to bring progress in that area, which we are slowly seeing improvements in. I saw a lot of progress in Iraq for example. Additionally, companies that do US government contracting in other parts of the world are required to go through training on this issue, and trust me, it puts the fear of God in them. Not to say it never happens, but there are huge deterrents. It's an area the US shows tremendous leadership in.

Having said all that, once the folks come to America to set up restaurants or businesses here, I have no sympathy for that culture clash. They're in America now, so speak our language and follow our laws. Foreigners watch a lot of American TV overseas and we have a global reputation for being a land of more rules and having a more level playing field than anywhere else. That's why they all clamor to come here.

[Trip]

The stopped the truck and four fireman came off of it with fire axes....

I dropped a couple of...

RDS, you provide the best f'ing visuals, LMAO.

[Penta]

RDS, you provide the best f'ing visuals, LMAO.

I was just going to say: I read that post at school, after getting dropped off absurdly early (hours early) before class by paratransit, while I was in the lab. I laughed so hard, then winced...I got stared at. Thanks RDS! :P

[Penta]

Having said all that, once the folks come to America to set up restaurants or businesses here, I have no sympathy for that culture clash. They're in America now, so speak our language and follow our laws. Foreigners watch a lot of American TV overseas and we have a global reputation for being a land of more rules and having a more level playing field than anywhere else. That's why they all clamor to come here.

It's good to know I got something right.:P

I agree with you in part and disagree in part, Trip, so far as the quoted part of that goes. The language thing - eh. It'd be nice if they could, but my 3 of my grandparents are/were immigrants (1 from Ireland, and then my dad's parents from Italy); I barely remember my paternal grandparents, but I distinctly remember that my grandmother (I don't really remember my grandfather on dad's side; I presume he spoke better English, but don't know) never really spoke more than (sometimes very) broken English, even in her last years (the only ones I remember), even though she came over in '46 as a war bride and was over here for..God, maybe more than 40 years by the time she died in '92? English is not an easy language to learn, and while it's nice when they try, sometimes the reality is that it won't happen. So while I see your point there, I also have some sympathy for the newcomers.

On laws, again: You're right, but I think you're being too black and white about it, as with language. Ignorance of the law may not be an excuse legally, but I would consider it a strongly mitigating factor morally - and the laws around bribery, corruption, improper gifts to an official, etc. are very, very cultural; they're not obvious at all. So while I agree generally with your position...I also think we do a horrible job when it comes to educating people, especially newcomers, as to what the laws are and how they work, and that not to take that into consideration is...problematic.

[Trip]

It's good to know I got something right.:P

I agree with you in part and disagree in part, Trip, so far as the quoted part of that goes. The language thing - eh. It'd be nice if they could, but my 3 of my grandparents are/were immigrants (1 from Ireland, and then my dad's parents from Italy); I barely remember my paternal grandparents, but I distinctly remember that my grandmother (I don't really remember my grandfather on dad's side; I presume he spoke better English, but don't know) never really spoke more than (sometimes very) broken English, even in her last years (the only ones I remember), even though she came over in '46 as a war bride and was over here for..God, maybe more than 40 years by the time she died in '92? English is not an easy language to learn, and while it's nice when they try, sometimes the reality is that it won't happen. So while I see your point there, I also have some sympathy for the newcomers.

On laws, again: You're right, but I think you're being too black and white about it, as with language. Ignorance of the law may not be an excuse legally, but I would consider it a strongly mitigating factor morally - and the laws around bribery, corruption, improper gifts to an official, etc. are very, very cultural; they're not obvious at all. So while I agree generally with your position...I also think we do a horrible job when it comes to educating people, especially newcomers, as to what the laws are and how they work, and that not to take that into consideration is...problematic.

I still have no sympathy, especially for those who expect to work in our society (grandmom's who stay home get a little bit of a pass, but no one else). My dad's parents came over from Poland on the boat during the first big war; my mom's family comes from Ireland - they were all immigrants at one point.

Have even less sympathy for those who break our laws. Just as it is for non-immigrants, if you don't learn it proactively, the fastest way to learn our laws is to get fined for it. One year I bought a bikerack for my mountain bike and later found out it was against the law for racks like mine that obstructed the license plate. I was mad that the store sold it in a state where it was not legal, but ultimately it was MY responsibility. I'm big on indiviual responsibility. If you go to set up a business - like I have several times - you must do your homework, as I did. And it was a lot of work. It would be one thing if the rules were only known by a certain class of people, but in America, information is available everywhere on these topics, especially now with the internet.