So, about those contracts...

[Penta]

Yeah, I'm still on the hunt for research info for my writing. This next is a bit winding because I was up til 3 AM and only got 4-5 hours of continuous, decent sleep, and I'm still not really awake even a good while later after waking up and crawling out of bed; my apologies in advance. (Mods, it strikes me that this may or may not be the right forum for this. If it isn't, could you please move it to off-topic?)

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When you find yourself emailing the PBA in order to get info on the NYPD, you know things are bad - either your search skills or the NYPD websites. (I'm still not sure which is to blame; No, journalistic sources reachable via Google didn't even begin to provide this sort of info about the current contract.)

Before anybody throws things at me and says I'm wasting the time of the PBA guy who answers their general inquiries email link, I'll note in my defense that I kept the email strictly focused: I asked if (A) the NYC-PBA contract currently being worked under (I do know, indeed I specifically mentioned being aware of the fact in my email, that the PBA is in negotiations at this moment (or will be soon) for a new contract. I specifically mentioned I wasn't looking for anything on that contract. Just the current one.) was available for public review; (B) If it was available in an electronic format (for easier reading, review, and reference), if it was available to the public; (C) If A and B are both true (the contract may be reviewed by some random person not a member of the PBA, and the contract is available in an electronic format), could they please point me to a web link to download a copy, or an email address where I might request a copy.

Fairly simple, no? (I mentioned what I was looking for in the contract (I'll quote: "I'm looking for the gory details on how the NYPD pays police officers and Academy recruits, and how much (in some detail)."), and why ("I write fiction, mostly short stories and collaborative fiction, though I'm not good enough (nor do I think I ever will be, if I'm realistic) that you'll ever see me published under any name (especially since I don't write with any intention of getting money, just to focus my mind elsewhere from school (I'm training to be a paralegal at my local community college, and the law can be a very dry topic of study) or summertime boredom); I mostly have written science-fiction up to now, and the story I'm planning (a story that focuses on the adventures/misadventures/existence (pick your favorite term) of a rookie NYPD officer, and his first days, weeks, and months after graduating from the police academy) is my first jaunt into realistic fiction set in a modern setting, so I have a certain need and desire to get the details right (there'll be artistic and dramatic license taken enough in the actual writing; when I'm planning, I want to be ruthlessly realistic, so I avoid making hilarious (or embarrassing) mistakes); I'm also the sort of details-focused, possibly obsessive, type of author who, regardless of genre or setting, tries to do a good bit of world-building (or, in this case, research on the real world) before I get out of the early planning stage, figuring out details (that might never go into my stories) on at least my main character, details like "how often does the character get his paycheck?", "where might this character live (something I determine in some detail)?", "what are the details behind the gun he carries on-duty, and the details behind the gun he's evidently required (by NYPD regs) to carry wherever he goes while off-duty? (as well as "Exactly how does he carry it? With what ammunition does he load it, going down to a brand and model if possible? And precisely *how* do you draw a gun from the holster anyway, whether the holster on his duty belt or whatever kind of holster he uses for his off-duty weapon?")", "what kind of car does he drive, going at least to year, make, and model? (we'll leave color out, because the author is mostly blind and could never figure out color choices anyway)", and so forth. Those details help me define and write the character, and it's a process I try to do for my main character at the very least. To answer the vast majority of those questions (all except the weapons questions), I find I likely need to figure out a draft sort of fictional budget for my character in a program like Quicken (which in my experience requires some detail in breaking down the numbers, much more than the NYPD website provides), or at least get his income from being a police officer settled in the same way one would "plug it into" a program like Quicken, and from there figure out what he'd be willing (or even able) to spend on things like housing, car stuff, etc. To do all that, I need to know the details of what the NYPD pays a recruit or an officer, and how. To know all that, I likely either need the contract, or I need a fairly detailed summary of the contract, or I need the contract-conforming pay and benefits regulations of the NYPD (which seem unlikely to be available from the NYPD, particularly electronically).") .)

I then asked that if they could not (or were unwilling to, for whatever reason) provide the contract currently in force, could they provide at least a summary (pay tables or something) of the relevant provisions? If they felt they couldn't (or didn't want to) do that, could they provide me with information on where to look for the currently-in-force NYPD pay and benefits regulations? If that wasn't possible, could they at least tell me if there was an email address (because none seemed to be floating about) for a member of the public to contact the NYPD public information office, so that I might contact them to figure out answers to my questions?

In summary of all of this: I felt I needed to be descriptive with what I was looking for and why (it's not that odd a request when you think about it, but it probably is not something the PBA hears often), but I tried to Keep It Short (I know that reads very long; I was more descriptive here than I was there); I think I did a good job of being as polite and respectful as one can come across in an email (while still being clear and without being stilted), especially given that I was "approaching out of the blue" with this.
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That said, when I told my mom (a realtor) what I was doing (she poked her head into my room and asked why I was "banging away at the keyboard like that"), I inadvertently started an argument between me, her, and my dad (a retired civil servant at the federal level). Mom felt I had "no right" to be asking for the contract or pay details like that. Dad retorted (I didn't even realize he was nearby) that I had every right: Public sector pay info even on individuals was public information; He thought it was a bit odd to be asking the union and not the city, and had no idea why I might need that amount of detail to write, but he thought that I had every right to ask. I responded that, well, I needed the detail to do the sort of character creation I do as part of the writing process, wholly aside from just being curious, and that I emailed the PBA because I could not find a single email link for the NYPD. (He checked later and was surprised the NYPD didn't have an email address available for public inquiries like that.)

The argument went around from that point for a bit before they changed the topic and argued about something else I had no interest in, but it prompted me to ask for opinions here. Posing these as questions, but I'm as interested in opinions regarding my approach and the argument as much as I am answers to the questions posed.

1. Is my dad even partly right (I took his argument help at the time, but am now curious)? Are contracts in the public sector (particularly with the unions) public information? What about salary details for individual employees? (This might be a state by state thing, I realize.)

2. Was I right to ask the PBA for assistance in finding out the information I'm looking for? Right or wrong, did I have the right to ask, or (as my mom thinks) is that the sort of thing I either find if I'm lucky, or just let go if I'm not? (The way I figure it, of course I could ask! They could always say "Not going to talk about that" or "Go away" or something. But maybe I'm wrong and it was wrong (or just impolite, no matter how I asked) to ask in the first place.)

3. If I did have the right to ask (or even the right to know the answer to the questions I had), did I do the right thing by asking the PBA when the NYPD has no electronic means of reaching them (the only phone I have and know is available for me to use, for reference, is my cellphone - Not many minutes on it (it's intended for emergencies, "pick me up please" calls, and the like), and I'm not sure the billing situation of my calling plan in terms of a call to a 212 or 646 number - as the landline at home tends to be kept open for emergencies and people who don't know our cell numbers), or should I have held my tongue? My mom seems to think that I shouldn't have contacted the union on this sort of thing, even if they were the only ones taking questions ("on the PBA or police officers" as their website puts it) through a public-inquiry email address; instead, I should only have contacted the city/the NYPD. (Weirdly, she's the one who's the daughter of a guy who ran a union local. (In one of the building trades, but hey.) I'd have thought she'd be okay with my trying to get the truth from the union involved - my grandfather likely would, and probably would tell me not to trust the city on the matter in any event! *shrug*)

[MikeG]

In general, it sounds like you made an FOI request. That's why your dad said it was a) perfectly legal to get the info and b) wondering why you didn't ask the city for it as they are generally obligated by law to provide information.

That said, I have no idea how much information about contracts is accessible through FOI. I'm not a LEO, lawyer or union member so this is just broad opinion (common sense I hope). You can ask the PBA but if I were in their shoes, I would direct you to the city Public Information Office that knows exactly what they have to disclose, what they can't disclose and when they have to disclose it by. Only bad things can happen to the poor PBA guy who discloses too much so I suspect they will direct you to the city or ignore you.

[Penta]

The long, anguished scream of "NOOOOOOOOO!" you may have just heard throughout the Northeast is my reaction to it being a likely FOI request. You're absolutely right, upon reflection, it is probably a FOI request.

That's almost the worst possible thing I could imagine in this instance.

Why?

1. NYPD appears to have no email address to send a FOIA request to. Not in the Deputy Commissioner for Legal Matters; Nor in DCPI. DCPI does not even have a webpage on the NYPD site. DCPI does not have an email address for public inquiries. (Which is, just...Wow. The press office of the NYPD doesn't have a webpage? Doesn't have an email address? What year is this, again?)

2. Unless I'm supremely lucky, and they have an electronic version handy? 25 cents a page. Doesn't sound like much, but given that any contract is likely to weigh in around 100-200 pages, probably? Adds up quick...And since I don't exactly have money (I don't have a dollar, let alone $25 or $50) that isn't already going someplace...

I hate it when bureaucracy hides from me.

[Penta]

I feel stupid now.

It's a free call, I find out, so I call the NYPD switchboard, asking for the office of the Deputy Commissioner of Public Information. The switchboard transfers me to...DCCA. Who transfers me to DCPI. I ask my question ("May a member of the public review the current contract between the NYPD and the PBA in electronic format?") and get sent to the Office of the Chief of Transportation (!). I ask my question again, they tell me to talk to the PBA.