You shot an unarmed suspect?

[Silver Fox]

You shot an unarmed suspect?

Credit for this interesting article goes to PoliceOne:

An officer was attacked by two unarmed assailants. The officer was barely holding his own with the first assailant when the second bad guy decided to join in. At that point the officer realized he was badly overmatched and was afraid he might be overwhelmed and knocked unconscious, so he made a crucial decision.

[MyOwnNemesis]

In the immortal words of Clint: "He should of armed himself".

If I was in the situation of being outnumbered and overwhelmed - I would engage as well. My wife expects me home and I don't want my firearm in the hands of another.

[retdetsgt]

Years ago, I was in Las Vegas doing a presentation and there was an incident where 5 teenagers tried to shoplift a bunch of beer in a convenience store. An off duty officer was in the store and tried to stop them. They attacked the officer and he shot a couple of them, killing one.

From what I read in the Las Vegas paper about it, there didn't appear to be a problem with it by either LV metro nor the DA's office. The chief made a statement that the officer did the right thing in defending himself from a "gang of hoodlums" (his words).

Then again, in the early 60's I had a cousin on Dallas PD. He was about 6-5 and 240 lbs, but came up against some guy that was a martial arts expert back before it was cool. Even though my cousin was quite a bit bigger, the bad guy started doing a number on him. I'm not sure of all the circumstances other than my cousin was losing so he pulled out his gun and shot the guy. Frankly, I don't know if it was because he feared for his life or he just wasn't used to losing fights.....

He wasn't charged, but DPD asked him to resign. As I said, I never got all the details and he's dead now.

[Samuel]

Overall, decent article. 2 things though, IMO should not have used the word "mistakes" in paragraph 6 - makes it sound like a shooting in those circumstances was wrong/erroneous (which is not necessarily so); and last sentence of paragraph 11, delete "necessary" - per graham vs connor, we don't use necessary any more - "objectively reasonable" instead.

[txinvestigator1]

In the immortal words of Clint: "He should of armed himself".

If I was in the situation of being outnumbered and overwhelmed - I would engage as well. My wife expects me home and I don't want my firearm in the hands of another.

Police officers must use deadly force only within the justifications allowed in the law. Your wife expecting you home, or not wanting your firearm to fall into the hands of another are not lawful justifications.

Any person can use deadly force to protect himself from anothers use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force. (states word it differently, but that is the bottom line)

Disparity of force (multiple attackers, skill leves, etc) can create a justification that the attackers force is deadly. One not need a weapon to use deadly force. An unarmed attack can easily be deadly force, and therein lies the legal justification for an officer to respond with deadly force.

;)

[Cat_Doc]

... or not wanting your firearm to fall into the hands of another are not lawful justifications.

I don't think you meant it the way it reads, but someone attempting to disarm you of your firearm certainly would classify as deadly force justified.

And, going home to my wife qualifies as wanting to live. Wanting to live means something is occurring that jeopardizes that and deadly force is justified.

I am more likely now, than ever before in my younger years, to shoot someone who is unarmed if they are attacking me and/or attempting to disarm me.

It all boils down to articulation as far as I am concerned. All I have to do is convince a jury I was in fear of my life or the life of a third person.

I don't have an issue with Mr. Nemesis's stance.

[retdetsgt]

It all boils down to articulation as far as I am concerned. All I have to do is convince a jury I was in fear of my life or the life of a third person.

I just remembered another incident here in Oregon about 20 years or so ago. A retired LAPD captain got into a road rage situation with a young man who forced him off the road. The young man, who was considerably bigger, younger, etc came out of his car threatening the retiree who pulled his gun and shot the guy. I don't believe he killed him.

The DA in that county charged the old retiree with assault with a deadly weapon and it went to trial. The retiree was acquitted by a jury. Now I don't know how much the retiree contributed to the original problem. My assumption is he was a victim pretty much up until the shot was fired. Otherwise, the jury might not have been so lenient.

As far as someone trying to go for your gun, I think the reasonable assumption would be that they intend to use it on you. Why else would they want it?

[Cat_Doc]

As far as someone trying to go for your gun, I think the reasonable assumption would be that they intend to use it on you. Why else would they want it?

That would be my conclusion. It will not take much searching of the FBI stats on Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed to see how many are disarmed and killed with their own sidearm.

It must have been around the mid to late 70's when an unarmed male subject in Phoenix beat a Phoenix P.D. officer to the ground. The suspect was getting ready to do the boot stomp on the officer when the officer shot and dropped him right there. Justified, totally justified.

Someone attacking me, as opposed to trying to get away or not be cuffed, has placed themselves in a deadly force scenario.

[retdetsgt]

Someone attacking me, as opposed to trying to get away or not be cuffed, has placed themselves in a deadly force scenario.

Yep. If I get scared enough, I'm not going to sweat legal technicalities. I'll worry about those later.

[Cat_Doc]

Yep. If I get scared enough, I'm not going to sweat legal technicalities. I'll worry about those later.

No shit. We ain't the same young buck hard asses we used to be.

[MyOwnNemesis]

Police officers must use deadly force only within the justifications allowed in the law. Your wife expecting you home, or not wanting your firearm to fall into the hands of another are not lawful justifications.

Any person can use deadly force to protect himself from anothers use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force. (states word it differently, but that is the bottom line)

Disparity of force (multiple attackers, skill leves, etc) can create a justification that the attackers force is deadly. One not need a weapon to use deadly force. An unarmed attack can easily be deadly force, and therein lies the legal justification for an officer to respond with deadly force.

;)

While adding a bit of levity I believe I may have been misunderstood. I am not attempting to quote from case law or precedent. Remove the wife comment and I stand firm in my statement that if I was outnumbered or overwhelmed and my firearm was in danger of getting into another's hands - I would shoot the attacker(s).

Cheers

[Cat_Doc]

I stand firm in my statement that if I was outnumbered or overwhelmed and my firearm was in danger of getting into another's hands - I would shoot the attacker(s).

Cheers

Fuk'n A!

[retdetsgt]

No shit. We ain't the same young buck hard asses we used to be.

The problem is..... Sometimes in the heat of something, I start to think I'm 30 years old........

About 7 or 8 years ago, my wife's niece got involved with a drug dealer who showed up at a family gathering after she dumped him. I ended up in the front yard in his face and explaining to him in detail the order of which I was going to shove his various body parts up his ass.

After he walked away with his tail between his legs, I damn near fainted when I realized he was at least my size, 30 years younger and no doubt in better shape. When I walked back in the house, even my wife's family was clearing a path for me. I guess I still haven't lost my boyish charm.......

[Norm357]

The problem is..... Sometimes in the heat of something, I start to think I'm 30 years old........

About 7 or 8 years ago, my wife's niece got involved with a drug dealer who showed up at a family gathering after she dumped him. I ended up in the front yard in his face and explaining to him in detail the order of which I was going to shove his various body parts up his ass.

After he walked away with his tail between his legs, I damn near fainted when I realized he was at least my size, 30 years younger and no doubt in better shape. When I walked back in the house, even my wife's family was clearing a path for me. I guess I still haven't lost my boyish charm.......

Fn awesome!

[Darin]

The problem is..... Sometimes in the heat of something, I start to think I'm 30 years old........

About 7 or 8 years ago, my wife's niece got involved with a drug dealer who showed up at a family gathering after she dumped him. I ended up in the front yard in his face and explaining to him in detail the order of which I was going to shove his various body parts up his ass.

After he walked away with his tail between his legs, I damn near fainted when I realized he was at least my size, 30 years younger and no doubt in better shape. When I walked back in the house, even my wife's family was clearing a path for me. I guess I still haven't lost my boyish charm.......

I keep thinking of Clint Eastwood saying "Get off my lawn" after reading this.