Students for Concealed Carry on Campus

[Kate]

Long, but worth the read.


After shootings, national student group pushes for right to carry concealed weapons on campus.

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

Along with books, laptop and cell phone, there is something else that Jeremy Clark thinks is essential to bring to class: his gun.

The Villanova University law student said the sickening spate of campus shootings, from Virginia Tech to Northern Illinois University, left him feeling vulnerable without his Glock 9mm semiautomatic handgun.

"If I'm in a classroom where a shooting is taking place, I'd like a chance to be able to defend myself," said the 29-year-old Army veteran from Bethlehem, Pa., who served tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But Villanova, like nearly all colleges and universities nationwide, bans firearms on campus. A new group, called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC), would like to change that, arguing that concealed-carry permit holders should be able to bring weapons to school to defend themselves and their classmates against a deranged killer.

The group, which sprang up after the Virginia Tech massacre, claims to have 16,000 members at 500 campuses nationwide, including Pennsylvania State and West Chester Universities, with every incident drawing in more frightened students, faculty and parents. With a click of a Facebook account, anyone can sign up.

"We got more than 1,000 new members after the [NIU] shooting," said Stephen Feltoon, a national director of SCCC and a recent Miami University graduate.

In April, supporters plan to wear empty holsters to class during a day of protest.

Clark said the Illinois shooting - in which a former student killed six and wounded 15 in a classroom on Feb. 14 - made him realize that the safety measures instituted by schools after the Virgina Tech massacre weren't working.

"There's only so much they can do," said Clark, who joined SCCC after that incident. "If I'm licensed to carry a gun in this state, why can't I carry it here?"

Guns laws vary greatly from state to state, with only one state, Utah, permitting concealed-carry on campus. New Jersey forbids guns at all schools while Pennsylvania's ban is limited to elementary and secondary schools.

Restricting firearms at colleges doesn't make them safer, advocates say. In fact, they add, criminals will likely target schools because they know they are gun-free zones.

"It's the same reason we wear seat belts - we just don't know when something is going to happen," said Ken Stanton, a 30-year-old graduate student at Virginia Tech, where a gunman slaughtered 33 people in April 2007.

Colleges don't see it that way.

"At first blush, this might appear to some to be a good idea, but I think most of us in the field would agree it is not," said David Tedjeske, director of public safety at Villanova, which has had two recent gun incidents. In November, someone fired several shots in the air after a late-night altercation outside the student center, and last year a gunman shot at police just off college grounds, triggering a massive manhunt and campus lockdown.

The idea of loaded guns in beer-soaked frat houses isn't as farfetched as it seems. At least 13 states are considering some form of legislation allowing concealed-carry on campus, according to the National Conference on State Legislatures.

The University of Utah's gun ban was struck down by the state Supreme Court in 2006, though it is fighting to reinstate it in the federal courts. But the state legislature is considering a bill that would allow weapons to be carried openly at public universities.

"The feedback we've received from faculty and students is that the last thing they want is to have someone openly carrying a gun in a classroom or through the halls or on campus," said university spokeswoman Coralie Alder.

Critics say there are many reasons why guns and colleges don't mix.

"The more guns you put on campus, the more likely they are going to be misused," said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Trained police officers only hit their targets 20 percent of the time in emergency situations, he said. Not only is it unlikely that a student or teacher would be able to save the day, police responding to the scene could not tell the good guys from the bad guys.

There's also a danger of guns getting lost, stolen or misused.

"Someone gets drunk, upset, angry with a girlfriend - and all of a sudden there's a gun in the mix, and you've got more problems than you're solving," he said.

The International Association of Campus Law Enforcement does not endorse concealed-carry on campus, noting the potential for accidents or misuse.

"I would dispute anyone who says there's evidence to suggest that having students carrying guns on campus make our campuses safer," said Steven J. Healy, police chief and public safety director at Princeton University and past president of the group.

In fact, research shows that making it easier to allow people to carry concealed weapons in public does not reduce violent crime, said Jon Vernick, codirector of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. And guns in the home increase the risk of suicide or homicide, he said.

The SCCC maintains that gun owners in general are law-abiding and careful with their weapons. Most partying goes on off-campus where guns are already permitted.

"In all my years interacting with students who are legal gun owners, never once has a firearm been brought out inappropriately," said Matthew Cross, 24, a concealed-carry advocate at West Chester University, where he is a graduate history student.

Rachel Blumenfeld, 23, of Wilmington, a law student at Villanova, got a .380 semiautomatic handgun last year after being stalked by an abusive boyfriend. She would like to bring it school because he has threatened to follow her there, she said.

A fellow law student, Peter Caltagirone, 25, said he used to support gun control, but now feels that allowing guns on campus will deter attacks.

"In light of the changing nature of the world," he said, "I think it's a necessary protective measure."

[CelicaGuy]

Where do I sign up? Unfortunatly I am in a NO CCW state :( >:( ........but I still want to support these young people!

[RemyG]

At my campus, we get about 1-2 emails a WEEK talking about robberies on and around campus (the surrounding apartments). This happens, and the victims CANT legally carry, because all of the apartments around campus ban weapons inside your apartment, along with the campus itself.

I have a feeling, and would be willing to bet that there would be a lot less robberies if people were allowed to carry CCW.

[Lawson]

At my campus, we get about 1-2 emails a WEEK talking about robberies on and around campus (the surrounding apartments). This happens, and the victims CANT legally carry, because all of the apartments around campus ban weapons inside your apartment, along with the campus itself.

I have a feeling, and would be willing to bet that there would be a lot less robberies if people were allowed to carry CCW.

Fortunately here, an apartment can not prohibit you from having a firearm inside your own apartment and I'm personally surprised they can prohibit it there.

[highwayman]

"If I'm in a classroom where a shooting is taking place, I'd like a chance to be able to defend myself," said the 29-year-old Army veteran from Bethlehem, Pa., who served tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Ok, and let's say he does need to use his firearm when some nutcase goes berzerk on campus and starts blasting away, from that point on the whole school will know he carries and I bet word will get outside campus as well about who carries and who doesn't, including the local gangstas who also like to play with guns, did you say CCW?

Gossip and backtalk works it's way around campus in a heartbeat, and those who carry will start sticking out like flies in the milk, with a bulls eye on their backs, inviting trouble wherever they go, and sooner or later they are going to have to decide between school and LE.

So, I think that students should concentrate in their studies and leave the LE part with the local authorities and campus security.

[Norm357]

Ok, and let's say he does need to use his firearm when some nutcase goes berzerk on campus and starts blasting away, from that point on the whole school will know he carries and I bet word will get outside campus as well about who carries and who doesn't, including the local gangstas who also like to play with guns.

Gossip and backtalk works it's way around campus in a heartbeat, and those who carry will start sticking out like flies in the milk, with a bulls eye on their backs, inviting trouble wherever they go, and sooner or later they are going to have to decide between school and LE.

So, I think that students should concentrate in their studies and leave the LE part with the local authorities and campus security.

***Cough***

Bull****

***Cough***

[mxwelch]

***Cough***

Bull****

***Cough***

No kidding. Highwayman did you even think about the crap you wrote of did you just copy a Berkley website?:rolleyes:

Personally I find your reference to CCW and gangsters in the same sentence ignorant as hell and insulting to boot.

What happened when 32 students at VT went about concentrating on their studies completely defenseless? How many times must this happen before people like yourself pull your head from you know where?

[mcsap]

The problem I see is that if and when there is a school shooting and there are armed students present who choose to draw and or fire....

How are the responding police supposed to know the good guy from the bad guy ? We see a " student" shooting and we may shoot HIM.

What training will said student have ?

Will the school be liable if said student shoots and or kills the wrong person ?

What if the students gun is taken from him and used illegally , whether in a school setting or not ?

Will there be a safe palce to store guns if they want to or will they always have to carry them ? ( phys ed class etc ?)

I am not necessarily against this but there has to be some consideration here for other possible scenarios.

[mxwelch]

The problem I see is that if and when there is a school shooting and there are armed students present who choose to draw and or fire....

How are the responding police supposed to know the good guy from the bad guy ? We see a " student" shooting and we may shoot HIM.

You know yourself that it's liable to be all over with before the police get there. The only reason you don't see it that way now is because the gunman usually just walks around free to do what he wants. Police response times HAVE NOT shown effective enough to nullify the argument against CCW by students. I'd rather take chances with shooting one student who's too stupid to lay a firearm down when he see an officer than give a gunman free reign for 10 minutes or so.

What training will said student have ?

Probably enough to do more than hide waiting to get shot. I don't why some LEOs think that everyone without a badge is completely incapable of using a firearm. At least it seems that way sometimes.

Will the school be liable if said student shoots and or kills the wrong person ?

Maybe, viable argument but still is it worth the risk of another VT?

What if the students gun is taken from him and used illegally , whether in a school setting or not ?

What difference would being a student make? That argument is like arguing that we shouldn't drive because we might have a flat.

Will there be a safe palce to store guns if they want to or will they always have to carry them ? ( phys ed class etc ?)

If not then it's an easy fix.

I am not necessarily against this but there has to be some consideration here for other possible scenarios.

I agree but any scenario would be preferable to another mass murder of unarmed students.

[mcsap]

The common sense of the issue of persons properly licensed to carry is not the question.

And I dont think that cops are the only ones who know how to use a gun !!


BUT I am tasked with responding to any such incident immediately. We are only to wait until a group of 4 of us arrive and then go in. In my PD we always have at least 5 on duty not to mention adjacent PD's.

We are not talking about cars on campus. We are talking about deadly weapons. Carrying them is serious business and before the SCHOOL or legislature gives a blanket GO AHEAD and carry...there is going to be some serious CYA discussion.

I do not want another VT but I of course do not want to kill an inncoent student who happens to be one of the " packing crew" ?!!!

The argument is that officers are trained in wepaons retention, Joe Student isn't. Could he not then provide the MEANS for another VT to occur.

Perhaps a CCW student could bring a gun in and HE would be the next cause of a VT ?

I do not have the answers for this but I think to arm students without further discussion is a BAD idea.

[greenlead]

We are not talking about cars on campus. We are talking about deadly weapons. Carrying them is serious business and before the SCHOOL or legislature gives a blanket GO AHEAD and carry...there is going to be some serious CYA discussion.

Remember that these students are already legal to carry elsewhere in the state, they are just forbidden to carry on the grounds of a particular business: their university. Why should the university have some special "off limits" status? Is a student somehow more likely to "snap" (doesn't happen) or be stupid just because he happens to be within the geographic limits of the campus?

I do not want another VT but I of course do not want to kill an inncoent student who happens to be one of the " packing crew" ?!!!

If he doesn't know how to follow instructions, then it's on him. Once again, this is no different than a situation occurring in a bank. You do your best as responding officer to make the right judgment.

The argument is that officers are trained in wepaons retention, Joe Student isn't. Could he not then provide the MEANS for another VT to occur.

Perhaps a CCW student could bring a gun in and HE would be the next cause of a VT ?

Where there is a will, there is a way. Officers are at a greater risk of gun grabs because if they authority that they represent. Even so, most of those grabs occur during a suspect interview, rather than some random crook running up and grabbing it from nowhere.

I do not have the answers for this but I think to arm students without further discussion is a BAD idea.

We aren't arming students. We are simply no longer forbidding an otherwise lawful individual from being permitted to exercise his Constitutional rights within the geographic boundaries of the campus.

[mobrien316]

Ok, and let's say he does need to use his firearm when some nutcase goes berzerk on campus and starts blasting away, from that point on the whole school will know he carries and I bet word will get outside campus as well about who carries and who doesn't, including the local gangstas who also like to play with guns, did you say CCW?

Gossip and backtalk works it's way around campus in a heartbeat, and those who carry will start sticking out like flies in the milk, with a bulls eye on their backs, inviting trouble wherever they go, and sooner or later they are going to have to decide between school and LE.

So, I think that students should concentrate in their studies and leave the LE part with the local authorities and campus security.

So, you are against the idea of students with concealed carry permits being allowed to carry on campus because if they use their weapon to successfully prevent another mass murder, they would reveal themselves as an armed student, thus setting themselves up to subsequently be robbed of their firearm by "the local gangstas"???

WTF?

[mxwelch]

BUT I am tasked with responding to any such incident immediately. We are only to wait until a group of 4 of us arrive and then go in. In my PD we always have at least 5 on duty not to mention adjacent PD's.

That's the problem, it isn't an immediate response. It would be great if it was but you of all people know you can't be everywhere at once. You can't tell me that at any given minute that 4 of you could converge on a scene in a matter of a couple of minutes. By the time that you did have enough officers to go in there are already a stack of bodies on the ground.

We are not talking about cars on campus. We are talking about deadly weapons. Carrying them is serious business and before the SCHOOL or legislature gives a blanket GO AHEAD and carry...there is going to be some serious CYA discussion.

You're right, it is a serious business and I'd expect those that carried on campus, just like those who carry in public, to know this. These schools, for the most part, are publicly funded institutions and if the legislators want laws in place protecting the school from liability then fine but while people argue over getting sued people are dying. I expect this problem to get worse. The last several years have shown a trend.

I do not want another VT but I of course do not want to kill an inncoent student who happens to be one of the " packing crew" ?!!!

I never believed you did. My whole point is that response time isn't nearly fast enough to deal with the problem before it becomes extremely deadly. If you could go back in time and arm someone at Norris hall would you do it? Throwing books against 110 gr bullets isn't really a fair fight. It isn't a fight at all for that matter. It's a slaughter. There are enough people who would qualify to carry on campus. Want a course that deals with school shootings and reacting to a police presence? Fine by me, but you've got to agree the status quo is going to result in more funerals.

The argument is that officers are trained in wepaons retention, Joe Student isn't. Could he not then provide the MEANS for another VT to occur.

Once again, weapons retention is an excuse and a weak one at that to leave these people defenseless. Include it in a "school CCW" course if you want.

Perhaps a CCW student could bring a gun in and HE would be the next cause of a VT ?

Not sure what you mean. If you mean someone would take his weapon and commit mass murder then see above. Most of the people who carried would probably be unknown to the fellow student body anyway. If you mean that someone who had a CCW would end up being another Cho solely because they carried a gun then that's BS. If someone is going to do it then not having a CCW isn't going to stop them from bringing a weapon on campus.

I do not have the answers for this but I think to arm students without further discussion is a BAD idea.

I hear the same thing from the politicians. They don't know what to do but they won't do anything. Want to implement a course designed for this then, like I said, fine. I just wonder how many more times we'll have to see 30+ people killed when one CCW holder might have saved many if not all of them.

[highwayman]

So, you are against the idea of students with concealed carry permits being allowed to carry on campus because if they use their weapon to successfully prevent another mass murder, they would reveal themselves as an armed student, thus setting themselves up to subsequently be robbed of their firearm by "the local gangstas"???

WTF?

If everyone inside or outside campus knows who CCW after a few incidents wouldn't those individuals attract unwanted attention from troublemakers outside the school grounds ?

Do you dismiss that possibility?

Is it safe for the CCW student to walk around the community when everyone knows he is CCW?

What's the point of CCW if everyone knows you carry a firearm, unless of course that's your intention ?

If five or more bad guys gang up on a single CCW student outside campus what is he to do then?

Would that have a positive or negative impact to the community ?

[greenlead]

If everyone inside or outside campus knows who CCW after a few incidents wouldn't those individuals attract unwanted attention from troublemakers outside the school grounds ?

Do you dismiss that possibility?

Is it safe for the CCW student to walk around the community when everyone knows he is CCW?

What's the point of CCW if everyone knows you carry a firearm?

If five or more bad guys gang up on a single CCW student outside campus what is he to do then?

Would that have a positive or negative impact to the community ?

Once a CCW holder stops a bad guy, I'm pretty sure the troublemakers will give them a REALLY wide berth.

Criminals don't like to die.