Is this probable cause?

[sfb92]

In driver's ed. today we were going over the topic of driving while intoxicated/under the influence.

My teacher said that if an officer is sitting on the side of the road, in the middle of winter, when its 12 degrees and sees a vehicle drive by with it's driver side window down that the officer would have p.c. to stop them for suspicion of dui/dwi.

My teacher said that the basis for the stop is that the occupant(s) could be trying to get the smell of marijuana or another illegal substance out of the car, or the odor of alcohol.

I don't know if what my teacher said is true and my mom didn't think it was. The only way I see an officer being able to make a stop for just a totally lowered window, is that the window may be busted out and it could be a stolen car. But, I really have no idea.

I'd be interested what the other civilians thought. For the officers is that p.c. in your state?

Thanks.

(I'll ask my dad when he gets home if that's p.c. for our state (NJ), but I'm curious to other states. I'll post my state's answer when I find out tonight at dinner.)

[txinvestigator1]

In driver's ed. today we were going over the topic of driving while intoxicated/under the influence.

My teacher said that if an officer is sitting on the side of the road, in the middle of winter, when its 12 degrees and sees a vehicle drive by with it's driver side window down that the officer would have p.c. to stop them for suspicion of dui/dwi.

My teacher said that the basis for the stop is that the occupant(s) could be trying to get the smell of marijuana or another illegal substance out of the car, or the odor of alcohol.

I don't know if what my teacher said is true and my mom didn't think it was. The only way I see an officer being able to make a stop for just a totally lowered window, is that the window may be busted out and it could be a stolen car. But, I really have no idea.

I'd be interested what the other civilians thought. For the officers is that p.c. in your state?

Thanks.

(I'll ask my dad when he gets home if that's p.c. for our state (NJ), but I'm curious to other states. I'll post my state's answer when I find out tonight at dinner.)

If you dad is LE, then ask him. PC is the same anywhere in the US.

I'll give you a hint, minus any other clues, having your window down is not PC.

[RO56]

I'll give you a hint, minus any other clues, having your window down is not PC.

No, but having your window down while carrying a loaded gun and smoking a joint is ...

[RemyG]

I would tend to agree with your other reason you posted, not the "getting the marijuana smell out of the car" one.

[sfb92]

I would tend to agree with your other reason you posted, not the "getting the marijuana smell out of the car" one.

I didn't agree with the whole getting out the smell theory either. I'd also think for my theory, that it could be a stolen car, you'd need another reason to make a stop. Such as a traffic infraction.

[lax854]

I didn't agree with the whole getting out the smell theory either. I'd also think for my theory, that it could be a stolen car, you'd need another reason to make a stop. Such as a traffic infraction.

if the person is indeed dui.....they will make an infraction. Its not a question of IF but WHEN. Think about it, most of us sober commit infractions without even knowing it. Why messs a stop up and hence ruin the entire arrest, what starts out good will lead to everything else being legal.

[ExUSPP]

Definitely not probable cause in any state. Probable cause is what you need to make an arrest or issue a citation not what you need to stop a car. Reasonable suspicion is what is needed for a traffic stop. Evenstill, I don't think just a window being down and nothing else adds up to reasonable suspicion.

[acreature]

Reasonable suspision is what is needed for a traffic stop.

THANK YOU for saying that!

[sfb92]

Definitely not probable cause in any state. Probable cause is what you need to make an arrest or issue a citation not what you need to stop a car. Reasonable suspision is what is needed for a traffic stop. Evenstill, I don't think just a window being down and nothing else adds up to reasonable suspision.

I just asked my dad the question at the dinner table, and just came on to post what he said. It's pretty close to what you said.

He explained to me that my teacher used the wrong terminology. He said the term the teacher should have used is reasonable suspicion, he said he could make the stop to see if the person was alright, because normal people don't have their window open at 12 degrees.

He said he could ask the person if they had been drinking or were under the influence. He said if the person said no and he did not notice any signs of drinking or illegal narcotics he had to end the stop there.

And ExUSPP my dad also said just having the window down would not cut it, but having your window open at 12 degrees is kind of suspicious and could cut it.

He also said probable cause and reasonable suspicion are really different.

Thanks.

[Jay7376]

he said he could make the stop to see if the person was alright, because normal people don't have their window open at 12 degrees.

um, sure. Good luck in court with that stop.:rolleyes:

back in the day when I was a smoker I would drive with my window down regardless of the weather. So does that make me abnormal and subject to being pulled over? Absolutely not.

[sfb92]

if the person is indeed dui.....they will make an infraction. Its not a question of IF but WHEN. Think about it, most of us sober commit infractions without even knowing it. Why messs a stop up and hence ruin the entire arrest, what starts out good will lead to everything else being legal.

Lax kind of an off topic question, but from seeing some of your other posts I noticed you're NYPD, unless I'm thinking of somebody else.

I know you guys have a highway division and do make traffic stops, but how often do you guys make traffic stops?

The reason I ask is because every time I go into the city the streets are so congested, it would be hard to speed.

And also my dad works in a city only a couple of miles from you, in NJ, his city was once one of the most densely populated in the country, so the traffic is really bad, like NYC! But I don't think they make a ton of traffic stops.

I'm just curious if the NYPD also doesn't make a lot of stops as well or are they stricter in regards to traffic enforcement? I know your dept. is so big that there can't be a universal answer, but I'm just wondering about the average p.o.

[scott715us]

Even if 20 below zero, a window down is NOT reasonable suspicion to conduct a traffic stop. It is not uncommon for someone to crank the heat up too much and alleviate the issue by rolling down their window.

[sfb92]

um, sure. Good luck in court with that stop.:rolleyes:

back in the day when I was a smoker I would drive with my window down regardless of the weather. So does that make me abnormal and subject to being pulled over? Absolutely not.

My dad said that it's not a really solid reason, but you could make a stop based upon that. What would happen in court?

I can see where you and everyone else is coming from on how it's a weak reason, but could that be reasonable suspicion?

I also like hearing everyone's answers on here, because my dad is in an administrative position now and hasn't worked the streets full time since the early 2000's, so as much as I hate to say it, I guess he could be wrong.

[Jay7376]

My dad said that it's not a really solid reason, but you could make a stop based upon that.

You could absolutely, without a doubt, NOT make a traffic stop simply because someone has their window down during cold weather!!!!

What would happen in court?

The entire case could be dismissed because the officer had no basis for making the traffic stop.

I can see where you and everyone else is coming from on how it's a weak reason, but could that be reasonable suspicion?

NO!!!

[sfb92]

Well after seeing scott715us, Jay7376, and ExUSPP's answers, three l.e.o.'s from different regions, I'll have to assume my dad is wrong.

My dad said it would be a shaky stop, and you all said it would be a bad stop, so if three l.e.o.'s say it's a bad stop and one (my dad) say's it's a shaky stop, I'll have to go with it's a bad stop.

If you guys don't mind can you please give me some examples of reasonable suspicion?

The wikipedia examples are;

Courts have ruled that a stop for a reasonable suspicion may be appropriate in the following cases: when a person possesses many unusual items which would be useful in a crime and appears agitated, when a person matches a description of a suspect, or when a person runs away at the sight of police officers. However, a reasonable suspicion may not apply merely because a person refuses to answer questions, declines to allow a voluntary search, or is of a suspected race or ethnicity.

Who knew high school drivers ed. teacher's could bring up such interesting conversations, at least for me anyways.

And thanks for all your answers, especially Jay7376.