Off-duty Firefighter fights with Police

[narius]

This is a hot topic here in Vancouver, happened over the weekend I believe. Kind of interested what board members think of what happened, mostly on whether or not the firefighters should have assisted the police officers.

YouTube fight between firefighter, police could lead to lawsuit
Last Updated: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 | 5:01 PM PT
CBC News

A Vancouver firefighter and his son may file suit against Vancouver police for "an unprovoked attack" that was publicized on the internet, the men's lawyer says.

Don Morrison, who represents Curtis Mason, 44, and his son Grant, 20, said the pair suffered numerous injuries, including a broken rib and serious cuts, during the weekend incident in downtown Vancouver.

Vancouver police struggle to subdue off-duty firefighter, with other firefighters looking on.Vancouver police struggle to subdue off-duty firefighter, with other firefighters looking on.
(www.youtube.com)

The incident has drawn widespread public attention since it was captured on video and posted on the popular YouTube website.

Morrison said Grant, who is an actor, suffered internal injuries that will impair his ability to work in the future

Morrison called it a case of assault and unnecessary force.

He said he has given the city notice of the potential lawsuit, alleging false imprisonment, unnecessary police force and assault causing bodily harm

As well, he said, a complaint will be filed with the police complaint commissioner.

Police responded to car accident

The incident began when police were called to the scene of a single-car accident in downtown Vancouver on Saturday night.

Police say the two men were unco-operative. The video shows officers fighting with the Masons, who have been charged with assault and obstructing police.

Six firefighters, who also responded to the accident, can be seen on the video watching police struggling to subdue the two men.

Fire department spokesman Capt. Rob Jones-Cook said one of the firefighters on duty recognized Curtis Mason and tried to calm him down.

A former Vancouver police inspector says firefighters clearly should have offered assistance to the police officers.


Long-simmering dispute

Dave Jones said the incident highlights a long-simmering dispute between the police and fire departments in Vancouver, with firefighters leaving it to police to deal with people who cause trouble.

"Typically, the response was that, 'We fight fires, not people,' the retired officer said.

"In terms of what happened the other night, that philosophy was standing like the elephant in room there, as three police officers were struggling with allegedly a firefighter, known to the other firefighters who were standing watching the incident."

He said a total of seven police officers ended up in hospital as a result of the incident. Four were injured when two cruisers collided while responding to the call for backup.

Jones, who once espoused the merger of Vancouver police and fire into a single unit, said he hopes the incident will help the city's two main emergency responders learn to co-operate in the interest of public safety.

I bolded the part that I found interesting. I would assume that Firefighters might not be allowed to get involved for liability reasons? How does this work with other agencies?

Oh, and ofcourse for those who want pictures... here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pATjJ...elated&search=

[MDEMT280]

Hmm. I saw one LEO shake a baton at one of the firefighters. I suppose he could have been saying, "Hey, look at my shiny new baton that I just got!"

More than likely, though, he was saying, "Stay the heck back, and don't you get involved!"

Besides, if one of my buddies is in a fight with the cops, I'm not jumping in there. Too much chance for a misunderstanding of whose side I'm going to be fighting on.

[CPDlife4ME]

Besides, if one of my buddies is in a fight with the cops, I'm not jumping in there. Too much chance for a misunderstanding of whose side I'm going to be fighting on.

Bingo.

I'd ask if I can help if it looked like they truly needed it.

On the other hand, if there's already a few officers there, I wouldn't want to add to the confusion even if my intentions were good.

[Robb]

Looks like a bunch of Firefighters doing what they do best. :rolleyes:

[LA5150]

If my partner and I were fighting two suspects, I would hope that some burly firefighters would jump in and help us instead of watching it like it was some frickin pay-per-view fight. The least they can do is grab an arm or leg and hold it. I know of a few cases where that has happened, and the officers involved were grateful for the assistance.

If I saw firefighters running towards the fight, I wouldn't be concerned about their intentions: they are "one of us." It's not like Big Momma running out of the projects to protect her "baby" by jumping on your back.

Yes, officers are concerned anytime someone approaches as we are actively struggling with a suspect. We don't know if the person will try to rescue the suspect, and/or start pummeling us. But all a citizen (or firefighter) has to do to make their intentions clear is to ask "Officer, can I help?" The officer will either tell you to get back, or say "yes!" if the fight is going badly for them.

[ChesCopPodz]

Our firefighters don't do squat to help. They stage for just about everything so we can get there first so they don't get hurt.

89 year old woman with diabetes who is being "uncooperative"? Stage for PD.

I remember the one time a 70 something year old woman fell and broke her hip. The residence was flagged for a mentally unstable man (her husband) who has alzheimers and could get violent. The ambulance staged because of the flag. Apparently they didn't stage far enough away because as I was still enroute, an update came across the MDC reading "Caller has called back wondering why the ambulance is just sitting up the street and not coming to the house"

[Stan Switek]

In my experience, fire department personnel in my city had no problem jumping in the fur ball. I saw them do it many many times. In my experience, they never once failed to help a police officer with a combative thug in my 30 years in the canoe club. In fact, in Ca, it is a crime for an able bodied adult not to come to the aid of a police officer when asked to do so. I would have had some serious words with those pansy firemen after that was over. I have to say that one back up officer weilded a very effective baton. I bet those firemen would have a different attitude if one of those crooks disarmed an officer & started busting caps at the firemen.

150 PC. Every able-bodied person above 18 years of age who neglects or
refuses to join the posse comitatus or power of the county, by
neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in taking or arresting any
person against whom there may be issued any process, or by neglecting
to aid and assist in retaking any person who, after being arrested
or confined, may have escaped from arrest or imprisonment, or by
neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in preventing any breach of
the peace, or the commission of any criminal offense, being thereto
lawfully required by any uniformed peace officer, or by any peace
officer described in Section 830.1, subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d),
(e), or (f) of Section 830.2, or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33,
who identifies himself or herself with a badge or identification card
issued by the officer's employing agency, or by any judge, is
punishable by a fine of not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more
than one thousand dollars ($1,000).

[MDEMT280]

I have to say that one back up officer weilded a very effective baton.

Yep, and I would have to say that the fact that he wielded it at a firefighter indicates that no help was desired. Maybe I'm just simple-minded, but if I approach a fight and a cop shakes a baton at me, he's either saying, "Here, take this and help!" or "Get back!" If anyone wants to try the first option, feel free, but it's not going to be me.

Under any other circumstances, yes, I would most certainly offer my help. Heck, I don't stage most of the time either, and I've taken my fair share of kicks, punches, shoves, bites, etc. because of that. I have no problem getting my hands dirty, and I've even taken the reprimands for it before. In this one instance, however, it was my perception, given that voices weren't really discernable in the video, that at least one officer didn't want the firefighters any closer.

But, hey, if I ever happen to see a firefighter getting arrested, I'll be sure to jump in. If I get a nice knot on the head or a face full of OC spray, though, I'm coming back to say "I told you so." :D

[danninator]

You better bet the firefighters in my city where I'm a cop will (and on two occasions have) jump in and lend a hand.

Where im a vollie firefighter we are rarely in situations that would require it but seeing how there are 6 cops in my 40 man fire dept. the relationship is good and their would be no problem with us swinging a halagan at someone rumbling with our police.

[CTDL92]

I had an incident where I had to respond to a mentally disturbed individual whom thought that he was an invisible ninja warrior, by the way he had taken his clothes off because they didn't turn invisible with him. Any ways he had spent the night in the woods naked and the EMT's were on scene treating him when I arrived. He was OK at first but the situation started to take a serious nose dive and he was starting to get really agitated, he wasn't a little man either and couple that with the "psycho" strength. My back up was a good 15-20 minutes away going code 3 and the EMT's just backed off telling me they weren't going to get involved. Luckily I was able to keep him corralled until the other troop arrived and he was able to talk him down, "Fred" refused to talk to me anymore as I was some sort of alien robot or something to that effect. I wonder whether they would've have jumped in if I was getting my *** kicked by this idiot.

[Stan Switek]

Yep, and I would have to say that the fact that he wielded it at a firefighter indicates that no help was desired. Maybe I'm just simple-minded, but if I approach a fight and a cop shakes a baton at me, he's either saying, "Here, take this and help!" or "Get back!" If anyone wants to try the first option, feel free, but it's not going to be me.

I'm guessing he was pissed at the firemen for just standing there with their lights. Those firemen are lucky a cop wasnt disarmed & lead sent their direction. The fact 7 cops went to the hospital tells me the situation was far from under control. The inaction by the firefighters was shameful & cowardly. I think most firefighters are very brave & would not behave this way.

[Hockey9019]

You better bet the firefighters in my city where I'm a cop will (and on two occasions have) jump in and lend a hand.

Where im a vollie firefighter we are rarely in situations that would require it but seeing how there are 6 cops in my 40 man fire dept. the relationship is good and their would be no problem with us swinging a halagan at someone rumbling with our police.

They really are that all purpose tool aren't they? I learned a few months ago how to pop a hood with one for a vehicle fire. Amazingly good for weapons and defense ;)

[magicman]

Our firefighters don't do squat to help. They stage for just about everything so we can get there first so they don't get hurt.

89 year old woman with diabetes who is being "uncooperative"? Stage for PD.

I remember the one time a 70 something year old woman fell and broke her hip. The residence was flagged for a mentally unstable man (her husband) who has alzheimers and could get violent. The ambulance staged because of the flag. Apparently they didn't stage far enough away because as I was still enroute, an update came across the MDC reading "Caller has called back wondering why the ambulance is just sitting up the street and not coming to the house"

For some reason, I couldn't see the video. I'd like to see what happened before making a judgement. But I can say I have a lot of respect for our fire guys and would think they'd help us if in a pinch. As far as the staging goes, that our FD's policy too and it's frustrating! My neighbor (has suffered through cancer twice, lost both of his parents and some financial difficulties) attempted suicide. My wife got a phone call from the neighbors wife that she had called for EMS. She was at work and trying to make her way home and was hoping we could help her. She didn't mention the suicide attempt. She just said he was sick and asked for help. I should have known with the ambulance at the end of the road but didn't at that time put 2 and 2 together. She got home and couldn't get in the house (she left the house key at work) so she gave me permission to bust open the door. All the while at the end of the street was 1 of our cruisers, and what seemed like the entire fire batallion. They wouldn't/ couldn't come down until the second unit showed up. Our neighbor is doing much better now but almost died. I of course got my butt reamed for going in on a suicide attempt. I explained to sgt what happened and that I didn't realize that's what it was.

[m19ark]

Last year there was an incident where dispatch called fire to respond to a call where the neighbors heard a woman moaning next door. They initially believed it to be a medical situation. When fire arrived, the woman moaning was hog tied with the assailent sleeping next to her. She was raped and sodomized with blood all over the sheets. Fire arrived just in time to wake the suspect up. They dispatched PD all this while allowing the suspect to get dressed and walk out the door right past fire personnel. This happend about 0700 with two schools in the general area so you can imagine the chaos. By the time PD arrived he was long gone. We had a perimeter set up within a couple of blocks. With the assitance of 2 airships he was apprehended a few hours later when he was seen jumping from roof top to roof top trying to get back inside the apartment to retrieve his property and pants since he was wearing hers. Was there a lot of talk during report writing that day about fire? You bet ur *** there was!!!