PepperBall Gun

[DepDog]

Wondering if any department is using the pepperball gun? Our agency just got one and we had training with it the other day.

It is typically aimed at the center of the chest, the projectiles have a one-two punch that cause intense pain and psychological shock.

The third incapacitating effect comes from release of pepper spray powder that envelops the upper body and causes extreme irritation of the eyes and lungs. We are trained to aim for the chest, because a shot to someone's head could cause serious injury.

It was not a requirement, but I actually volunteered to get shot with it. I took 5 shots to the chest, and belive me it hurts a lot. I welted up instantly and after a few hours I had bruises. Two days later I am still pretty sore.

[Stump]

Why 5 shots??? Wouldn't one just be enough?
Is that how many they plan on firing when using it? I know the crackheads etc, take more to get them down, but 5 shots for the average criminal?

[DepDog]

Well the company recommends 4-10 shots on a bad-guy. I had a simulated knife in my hand, and I dropped it to comply with the impact pain and pepper spray when I had enough. 1 shot would not do it alone, 5 was enough for me.

[Samuel]

Do NOT use a pepperball gun against a BG with a knife! It will not stop a "motivated" BG.

The ones we use are the modified (i.e. repackaged) Tippmanns. Some genius paid double or triple what the guns (with 250 round hopper and small air bottle) are actually worth.

They could cause serious injury if a round hits an eye but otherwise, they just leave welts (can cause lacerations if impacting against naked skin).

[Charlie]

DepDog--My agency has purchased the PepperBall "Launcher" as well and I have also taken the hits to the upper body too. Man, it does hurt a lot and I too think it is a pretty effective "tool" under the right cir***stances. Course, the user should also receive the appropriate training to utilize this device properly and under teh appropriate cir***stances.

Without a doubt, like anything else, the pepperball launcher is NOT appropriate for all cir***stances. AND, it is also NOT deployed or used simply to shoot someone in every cir***stance. One can also shoot the pepperballs at a wall above the targets head and the resulting pepperball's contents are dispersed. Believe me, the powder, (I can't think of the exact name of this type of new powder) is VERY effective!:eek: I only got exposed to a small amount of the newer powder and it had me chocking, crying, gagging, etc. I was in bad shape!

To me, an officer should have about any "tool" they can get available to them to effectively do the job. I think the pepperball launcher is a good one to have in most any PD's arsenal.

Just my opinion.....
--
Charlie

[Stump]

I just can't see how a gun that you *must* fire an average of 5 times to be very effective. Granted, having a pepperball gun is better than nothing, but Dep, you weren't even a crazed criminal... those guys typically need more to get them to comply.
Is the pepperball gun less painful than, say, a beanbag gun?

[mcsap]

If I am going to have to shoot someone with my .40 Glock, I might just put 5 rounds into them instead of thinking " one shot one kill". If I would have the pepperball gun, I would do the same. Last time I pepper foamed someone, I used almost half of a can on them. I wanted to be sure that it was effective. Any department is looking for less than lethal weapons so they don't have to go through the press and legal headache of even a justified shooting. I am assuming that the pepperball gun is semi auto. I am not going to shoot one ball and than evauate, shoot a second ball and evaluate etc. Just give em a good healthy dose to insure a take down is ALL THAT MATTERS.

[DepDog]

I don't know about the beanbag gun Stump. But the idea behind the pepperball gun is to get a subject to comply with your commands if at first a verbal command does not work. It is considered an impact weapon, such as a baton. I would rather be 30 feet away with a man with a knife with a pepperball gun, than 10 feet with a baton. Our gun is a semi-auto, but the company does make automatics.

They are an alternative to lethal force. They are safe at point-blank range. Provide increased officer safety. Allow suspect targeting ranges up to 30 feet and can be used to saturate areas at distances up to 150 feet. They offer multiple types of projectiles for training and tactical operations.

Here is a list of the type of scenario's that you may use it:

Controlling Uncooperative or Violent Suspects
Troop Withdrawal
Standoff/Barricade Situations
Suicide-by-Police
Riot Control
Domestic Violence
Prison Cell Extraction

There have been reported fatalities with the beanbag gun, and none with pepperball gun.

The company recommends shooting 4-10 times if suspect does not comply, reevaluate and shoot another 4-10 times. If suspect has not complied by then, then use alternative means. Of course less-lethal weapons do not work on all suspects, you just have to go to next level on use of force.

[resqr1]

Stump,
The plain and simple answer is that as with a firearm you shoot to stop the threat. And you keep shooting until the threat is over.

However, if I shoot somebody carrying a knife with 5-10 pepper balls and he/she is still coming there will be an immediate transition to my firearm.

[Stump]

Originally posted by resqr1
Stump,
The plain and simple answer is that as with a firearm you shoot to stop the threat. And you keep shooting until the threat is over.
However, if I shoot somebody carrying a knife with 5-10 pepper balls and he/she is still coming there will be an immediate transition to my firearm.

I understand about stopping the threat, shoot to live, blah, blah... my confusion was about the fact that you HAVE to fire at least 4 times to have an effect on anyone. It is a non-lethal response which I think is wonderful, but it seems to be wasting seconds by having to pump 4 shots into this person before evaluating.
That is interesting to hear that there have been fatalities with the beanbag gun, dep. I haven't heard that.
Those circ-umstances you mentioned could also use the taser or beanbag too. What makes the pepperball so great?
Alright, I won't beat a dead horse anymore. I won't ask anything else.

[DepDog]

I am sure 1 shot with pepperball could stop the threat in some situations. Our department does not use the beanbag gun yet, and we just got a Taser, but we are in the process of getting everyone trained in it. The pepperball gun is very accurate at 30 feet, there is no recoil to it at all.

Pepperball can be used at point blank range, where you cannot with a beanbag gun. With the enhanced effect of the burning of the eyes, mouth and nose, the pepperball gun is better than a beanbag gun because of the extra effects.

[Stump]

Ok, I lied. I have one more question. (And y'all can't tell me you are suprised - I AM a woman, after all :D )
With the OC spray you carry on your duty belt, what is the range/accuracy on that comparatively? I have been unfortunate enough to have been in the cloud when it has gone off, so I would think that the spray would encompass a little more than the ball. True/false?
*You can smack me anytime for asking all the questions*

[mcsap]

We exclusively carry pepper foam. Range is about 10 ft and it shoots a STREAM of fluid that is non-vaporizing. It looks like shaving cream upon impact and runs down. Wporks great on someone with glasses as it will run down from their forehead into their eyes. This is the 10% stuff and having had some on me, it surley BURNS like crazy. After being sprayed , they can be placed in a cruiser without any effects to me up front. The 10% formulas takes a good 45 min to wear off. In the mean time they are unable to open their eyes and wherever they got a blast , they feel like they are on fire.

"Dr. Pepper" will always have a place on my belt.

[DepDog]

The pepperball explodes on impact to the suspect, there is pepper powder (5% OC) inside of the ball. With pepper spray in outdoor situations with wind etc... it is not as accurate, about 10 ft in ideal situations. When shooting the pepperball gun the elements dont have that much of an effect on accuracy, but the powder can disperse differently as well with high wind.

In my experience with using OC spray I carry on my belt, I would say I would use the pepperball gun first as an alternative, if I had it available, then the OC spray can.

[Charlie]

Stump,

To me, there are pro's and con's using a pepperball launcher, pepper foam, (we also carry pepper foam too and IT is some bad stuff!!), and impact weapons along with our firearms.

Obviously, the pepperball launcher is NOT going to be used in each and every situation. Depending on the cir***stances, pepper foam may be the better option depending on the situation. At the same time, a pepperball launcher may be better utilized for, as an example, an EDP where keeping some distance might be in the better interest of the responding officers and civilians. The pepperball launcher may be fired several times at the target/EDP and you get two effects: The "shock" or stunning effect of the impacting pepperballs and, the pepper powder effects. If you shoot it multiple times....what's the big deal? I mean, when you spray someone with pepper foam, do they ONLY get a 1 second burst OR, a 5-10 second burst? I don't see the issue with this.....

Is a pepper ball launcher what you use for EVERY situation? Of course not. But again, if you receive the training and review the training materials, it's potential usefulness is quite apparent in some situations. AND, depending on the cir***stances, it could be yet another means an officer could utilize to gain control of a suspect or EDP before resorting to perhaps deadly force.

It's not fool-proof or the best "tool" for every situation. Again, I feel it is a very useful tool to have on hand.

--
Charlie