Police Pursuit

[Jim Phillips]

Curious about everyone's feelings about limiting pursuits, allowing civilain overview and mandating annual pursuit training?

[darrell]

I dont liek it at all. The public can be dumb to somethings. They dont understand that police are not making the actor run they are just simply trying to catch them. As long as the officer didnt hit a civilian or cause the actor to hit a civilian or chases through school zones and highly populated rurl areas then they need to stop blaming the cops. I think this idea of the overview and annual training, if being done by civilians is a bad idea. First off what do they know about chases? Besides whats on tv. Have they ever experienced one in the seat of a patrol car. NOPE. The civilians just want to control the police more and more eventually the police wont be able to do anythign but sit ont he road and not move.

[vadep]

This outta be interesting.....

First off...what do you mean be limiting pursuits? Limiting the types of violations for which a pursuit will be conducted? This is already done, at least in my area. EVERY police officer, in a pursuit situation, is (or should be) continually evaluating the threat posed by continuing the pursuit vs. the threat posed by allowing the suspect to go... Again these are things clearly defined in an agency's general orders/SOP.

Civilian overview? In what capacity? For what purpose? Is a jury of 12 civilian overview, whether it be civil or criminal?

Annual training, IMHO, is an absolute necessity. I can only speak for my agency, but again this is something we already do. It an individual officer's responsibility to be intimately familiar with their agency's polices and procedures. Perhaps a more effective threat reduction concerning pursuits would be policy review, at the senior administration level.

[Jim Phillips]

First off...what do you mean be limiting pursuits? Limiting the types of violations for which a pursuit will be conducted? This is already done, at least in my area. EVERY police officer, in a pursuit situation, is (or should be) continually evaluating the threat posed by continuing the pursuit vs. the threat posed by allowing the suspect to go... Again these are things clearly defined in an agency's general orders/SOP.

Certainly the threshold at which pursuit may (there are many other factors) be justified, is an important consideration. Should it be felonies, violent felonies, imminent danger to the public, deadly violence, officer discretion or some other standard?

Civilian overview? In what capacity? For what purpose? Is a jury of 12 civilian overview, whether it be civil or criminal?

Civilian overview in the sense of participation in the making policy and overseeing the proper implementation of that policy. Much the same as the civilian control and oversight of the US military.

darrell-I pray to God that you are a member of the public, who can be so dumb, and not a police officer.

[txinvestigator1]

Originally posted by Jim Phillips

darrell-I pray to God that you are a member of the public, who can be so dumb, and not a police officer.

Wow Jim, you have been here a whole day, and you already know enough about Darrell to "pray to God" that he is not a police officer.

Why? Because he disagreed with you?

Are you a Police Officer, Defense Attorney, Plaintiffs Attorney, involved in a collision with a cop? What is your interest in this anyway?

[vadep]

Originally posted by Jim Phillips
Civilian overview in the sense of participation in the making policy and overseeing the proper implementation of that policy.

And how exactly does a civilian, UNTRAINED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, participate in policy making? Even scarier, how does that same UNTRAINED civilian oversee the implementation of said policy?

[Jim Phillips]

And how exactly does a civilian, UNTRAINED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, participate in policy making? Even scarier, how does that same UNTRAINED civilian oversee the implementation of said policy?

The police are the tool of public policy, and while it certainly would be short-sighted, and counter-productive, to ignore the input of law enforcement professionals, ultimately it is civilain authority that will, and should, make the policies that dictate how the law enforcement activities of police agencies shall be conducted. Consequently, it follows that law enforcement is accountable to civilian authority. A time-tested constitutional concept.

[Jim Phillips]

Wow Jim, you have been here a whole day, and you already know enough about Darrell to "pray to God" that he is not a police officer

Frankly, I found his disdain for the public:

The public can be dumb to somethings

over-simplifictaion of complex issues:

They dont understand that police are not making the actor run they are just simply trying to catch them

and contempt for the elected officals for whom police work:

The civilians just want to control the police more and more eventually the police wont be able to do anythign but sit ont he road and not move.

to be offensive. I don't believe these are attitudes any professional police officer would subscribe to.

[txinvestigator1]

Thank you for your answer.

Now answer this "Are you a Police Officer, Defense Attorney, Plaintiffs Attorney, involved in a collision with a cop? What is your interest in this anyway?"

[Jim Phillips]

Are you a Police Officer, Defense Attorney, Plaintiffs Attorney, involved in a collision with a cop? What is your interest in this anyway?

I am the father of an innocent bystander who was killed as a result of a police pursuit. I thought this forum would be useful to gain insight into the views of the law enforcement community as I learn and seek solutions to this important, and complex problem.

[txinvestigator1]

Thank you. I understand where you come from now. My condolences at your loss.

I am a former cop, now the father of a 7 year old daughter, and I am in the private sector.

I have mixed emotions regarding police pursuits. I have stated my bottom line here before, and I will see if I can find the thread where we discussed this before.

My bottom line is, The immediate safety of my family is more important to me than cops catching the bad guy.

click here for a short discussion

A little longer one

A final one

[Jim Phillips]

I don't work for you allusivewolf. You work for, and are accountable to the public you serve, just as I am accountable to my employer. If you can't come to grips with that then perhaps you should find another job out of the public sector. I'm not trying to be nasty here, or making a value judgement on you or the job you do, just telling it like it is.

[Jim Phillips]

Where did allusivewolf go? His post dissappeared! I think he knows who I am, and tipped his hand by talking about my store and inventory-it's a small world. Come out of the closet allusivewolf and lets talk.

[Jim Phillips]

My bottom line is, The immediate safety of my family is more important to me than cops catching the bad guy.

Some of the threads were scary. As I study pursuit policies, even some national models (A.L.E.R.T. and ICAP), I find that a common practice is to assume that catching the bad guys is the most important aspect of pursuit policy and ithis need should be balanced against safety. Good pursuit policy (St. Louis County i.e.) is built around police and civilain safety with the need to catch the bad guys secondary. I think if everyone took the time to really think about what seems to be a trivial difference that we, as a society, could move forward to a more enlightened policy.

[zander_zye]

This is an interesting thread with lots of good opinions and insights on the subject.

I agree with a previous poster who stated that police are tools of public policy. That is why the Chief serves at the will of either the city council or city manager. The rules and regulations that govern police conduct (such as shooting and pursuit policies) are either dictated by state/federal law or by policy as set forth by the department (after approval of the city manager/council). The citizenry does, and should have the right to dictate what actions their police take within the law. This is why local control of a police agency is so crucial. Your choice as an officer is to either accept it, or find another line of work (that is how it works in the civilian world, I can accept the guidelines set forth by my employer, or find another line of work, that is my freedom)

I think a prime example of local control is Berkeley PD's policy of mounting the shotgun out of sight. The local citizenry demanded this of the police, and it is policy. While I believe this is silly, and quite possibly puts the officer at risk, the option for the officer is to find a job with another department. It is interesting that despite the fact the BPD is a extremely regulated agency as far as what actions the police can take for a given situation (again, almost to the ridiculous), there is apparently no shortage of well-qualified applicants.