HR218 - Reserve Officers

[Deputy757]

I read Deputy 757 response and took no offense as a reserve officer. I spent almost 6 years as a FT/Regular officer and then went reserve.

Thanks, because there was no offense meant. I stated before that I was speaking within the context of how things are here. As I also stated before, I'm sure there are very qualified reservists out there and I would also be very happy to have them there in a pinch.

[121Traffic]

I will say this, from the perspective as an ex-reserve, now a fresh FT'er. There are a couple FT'ers in my department that couldn't investigate their way out of a wet brown paper bag. There are reserves like that as well. I don't think that the status alone should dictate how the law is interpreted. I DO think that a minimum number of hours should be attained, as a starting point, IF you work part-time, i.e. as a Reserve. 96 hours a year might not cut it for me. Something closer to 24 hours a month (like my dept.) for one year I would be MUCH more comfortable with. Once you have completed this statutory "probationary" period, 218 would kick in for you. I believe that this would weed out a lot of the corner cutters who just want a badge and a gun to show off. I've met more than a few, and I tried to let it be known (before I got on FT) that I was NOT one of them.

[Bearcat06]

I just joined this site today and see that was a mistake. What an ignorant statement. 757 must have stolen some department's letterhead to get "verified leo" - I almost put my verification letter in the mail today, but with members like this here, I won't bother.

BTW - I've been a Reserve in Arizona for 15 years. Worked alongside some of the best, including our current US Surgeon General (who was a Reserve here with me, and a full time doctor) . We have the same school, FTO, AOT, etc as the ones that get paid. We have the exact same powers on and off. And, there have been years that several Reserves here passed the holy 2080 mark. We do it because we love and respect police work. Just can't afford the pay cut to do it full time.

If you in fact are a real LEO, shame on you.

Nice attitude.....757 is in fact a verified LEO, something you are not and with that attitude I doubt we would want you around. We are having a discussion about this and you had to come in and jack it up. So go some where else and troll.....because your attitude isn't welcomed around here.

I have notice that it depends on what part of the US you are at whether you support Resever Police Officers or not. I know that I have talked to some officers that see them as scabs taking away money from the full-timers. There are some officers that see them as not qualified to do the job without supervison from a full-time officer. And there are others like me, that know the reserve officers I work with have been through the same amount of training that I have been through and are able to do the job just as good as any of the full-time officers I work with....sometimes even better. I also know that if it wasn't for reserves in my area, I would never get any time off or get to go to training.....

[GoDirectly2Jail]

I just joined this site today and see that was a mistake. What an ignorant statement. 757 must have stolen some department's letterhead to get "verified leo" - I almost put my verification letter in the mail today, but with members like this here, I won't bother.

If you disagree with a member, especially a verified LEO, it would be better to PM that member to work it out. Intellegent people CAN disagree without resorting to being labeled a fraud, which is what you did to 757.

Not shame on him, but rather shame on you. It's why you're in the red...

[Joeyd6]

I just joined this site today and see that was a mistake. What an ignorant statement. 757 must have stolen some department's letterhead to get "verified leo" - I almost put my verification letter in the mail today, but with members like this here, I won't bother.

BTW - I've been a Reserve in Arizona for 15 years. Worked alongside some of the best, including our current US Surgeon General (who was a Reserve here with me, and a full time doctor) . We have the same school, FTO, AOT, etc as the ones that get paid. We have the exact same powers on and off. And, there have been years that several Reserves here passed the holy 2080 mark. We do it because we love and respect police work. Just can't afford the pay cut to do it full time.

If you in fact are a real LEO, shame on you.

10-7
Well....SHAME ON YOU!!!!

LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR

As a officer, you should be able to see the difference between FACT and OPINIONS and be able to keep your OPINIONS out of the facts of case. So let me help you with a few facts:

1) Not one person here said reserves or sepcials are bad in any way! No comparison to explorers, no horror stories...NONE! Every post here says they value what a reserve does, PERIOD!

2) It does not matter about what training anyone has! Anyone can apply to "volunteer" for a department in a part-time position and be accepeted, just like a full-time slot if you are of good moral character and psychologically level. And anyone...and I say ANYONE, can graduate a formalized police training. Just because you were accpeted, passed a class, and then rasied your right hand and said some words, DOES NOT MAKE YOU ANYTHING MORE THAN A CERTIFIED OFFICER!!!!! And There are many of those out there. I don't want to work with "certified officers," I want to work with the BEST OFFICERS out there! And, training does not mean you are. Application of knowledge sucessfully does!

3) Learning the job is done when you apply what you learned with the help of a seasoned officer. It takes 6 months here in NY City, (the busiest department around), of 40 hours a week....that means 240 hours....with a seasoned officer before you are even allowed to work alone or with a setady partner. Why? You have no clue....you need to learn.
-->So the point being made by 757 is that if it takes a officer time to learn the job, you can not say you are as proficcient at the job, or good at making decisions or judgements in life and death situations as a part timer when comapring a full timer.
A full time officer 6 months after graduation has on average 960 hours of application. The point was a reserve, even doing 2 shifts a week, after six months, has 384. Thus, the experience level is the same!!!!!
Let me put it this way: who would you want to operate on your wife with stomach cancer? A doctor who went Columbia Med School, and has been in full time practice for 12 years? Or a guy who also graduated Columbia Med School, but didn't like the money, was by day a lawyer, and practiced medicine on weekends at a local practice? I will tell who who gets my vote......FULL TIME. Why? Just more experience!!!

4) If a reserve does over 2080 hours (40+ week), and they working anywhere else, shame on yrou department. We have rules at our department, to protect oursleves and co-workers. You must have at least 8 full hours off between shifts, or you ride a desk job. So if they are doing 40+ hours there, then another 40 somewhere else at their real "job", that gives them 8 hours off...which also includes commuting and showering and sleeping. That is dangerous and stupid.

5) And who cares who you work with: former surgeon general, great attorney, movie star, etc.... "Worked alongside some of the best" to use yor words. NO. Maybe in their civilian field. NOT MINE! I have worked along some of the best...best in LAW ENFORCEMENT. Here are 23 of the best, 4 I have worked with : http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/memorial_01.html (The S.G. is not the best at medicine either...it is an APPOINTED position...thus polictical.) The best in law enforcement are those that have done this job, battled the streets, and LAID THEIR LIFE DOWN! It is not the surgeon general or anyone else riding next to you becasue he passed medical school and rides in a sector car 8 hours a week. You want to know who the best are? I suggest you get on a plane and visit the National Law Enforcement Memorial in Washington DC. That is where you will find the best, nowhere else.

6) I am 100% for reserves and special officers. They attend the same training as me and do the job, thus earning my respect. I appreciate everything they do and am glad they had made the sacrafice, usually for no money, to do this job. But the bottom line is, and a good reserve or special will openly admit it: the experience level is not the same between them and a full-time officer. It is less. Is that bad? NO!!!!! Does that make them any less of a cop or diminish what they do? NO!!!! But a reserves officers experience is jut not at the same level in most cases. What does make them less of cop is if they take on a piss poor attitude like you, posting it here in a immature fashion....and attacking somebody in a personal matter. Check the forum....you don't even see the young exploers doing such.

7) You state you worked with our Surgeon General. He was an deputy sheriff in the Pima County Sheriff Department in Arizona. He was a full time officer, SWAT Team Medic, SWAT Team Surgeon and later elected as sheriff. He also had a line of duty shooting, where he shot and killed a suspect. That is the only department he worked for and he was paid. I wondered....do reserves with them ride with experienced officers? So, not sure.......

--->I CALLED THEM (520-741-1600)!!!!! THEY HAVE NO RESERVE OR VOLUNTEER OFFICERS WITH POWERS OF ARREST OR WEAPONS OR PEACE OFFICER TRAINING!!!!!!!! THEY DO HAVE A CIVILIAN VOLUNTEER PATROL UNIT...called SAV and I spoke with them at 516-547-6744.

AGAIN...CONFIRMED THIS!!!!!! ALL NON-ARMED...SWORN CIVILIAN POSITION....HAVE A BADGE, ID CARD & UNIFORM.....NO POWERS OF ARREST......DO CRIME PREVNTION AND BASIC DETERRANT PATROL.....AND DO NOT RIDE WITH REGULAR OFFICERS!!!!! They even told me about their webiste: http://www.pimasheriff.org/Vol.htm.

Funny....how did you work with him when they don't have a position for such?

LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

[Norm357]

LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR

As a officer, you should be able to see the difference between FACT and OPINIONS and be able to keep your OPINIONS out of the facts of case. So let me help you with a few facts:

1) Not one person here said reserves or sepcials are bad in any way! No comparison to explorers, no horror stories...NONE! Every post here says they value what a reserve does, PERIOD!

2) It does not matter about what training anyone has! Anyone can apply to "volunteer" for a department in a part-time position and be accepeted, just like a full-time slot if you are of good moral character and psychologically level. And anyone...and I say ANYONE, can graduate a formalized police training. Just because you were accpeted, passed a class, and then rasied your right hand and said some words, DOES NOT MAKE YOU ANYTHING MORE THAN A CERTIFIED OFFICER!!!!! And There are many of those out there. I don't want to work with "certified officers," I want to work with the BEST OFFICERS out there! And, training does not mean you are. Application of knowledge sucessfully does!

3) Learning the job is done when you apply what you learned with the help of a seasoned officer. It takes 6 months here in NY City, (the busiest department around), of 40 hours a week....that means 240 hours....with a seasoned officer before you are even allowed to work alone or with a setady partner. Why? You have no clue....you need to learn.
-->So the point being made by 757 is that if it takes a officer time to learn the job, you can not say you are as proficcient at the job, or good at making decisions or judgements in life and death situations as a part timer when comapring a full timer.
A full time officer 6 months after graduation has on average 960 hours of application. The point was a reserve, even doing 2 shifts a week, after six months, has 384. Thus, the experience level is the same!!!!!
Let me put it this way: who would you want to operate on your wife with stomach cancer? A doctor who went Columbia Med School, and has been in full time practice for 12 years? Or a guy who also graduated Columbia Med School, but didn't like the money, was by day a lawyer, and practiced medicine on weekends at a local practice? I will tell who who gets my vote......FULL TIME. Why? Just more experience!!!

4) If a reserve does over 2080 hours (40+ week), and they working anywhere else, shame on yrou department. We have rules at our department, to protect oursleves and co-workers. You must have at least 8 full hours off between shifts, or you ride a desk job. So if they are doing 40+ hours there, then another 40 somewhere else at their real "job", that gives them 8 hours off...which also includes commuting and showering and sleeping. That is dangerous and stupid.

5) And who cares who you work with: former surgeon general, great attorney, movie star, etc.... "Worked alongside some of the best" to use yor words. NO. Maybe in their civilian field. NOT MINE! I have worked along some of the best...best in LAW ENFORCEMENT. Here are 23 of the best, 4 I have worked with : http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/memorial_01.html (The S.G. is not the best at medicine either...it is an APPOINTED position...thus polictical.) The best in law enforcement are those that have done this job, battled the streets, and LAID THEIR LIFE DOWN! It is not the surgeon general or anyone else riding next to you becasue he passed medical school and rides in a sector car 8 hours a week. You want to know who the best are? I suggest you get on a plane and visit the National Law Enforcement Memorial in Washington DC. That is where you will find the best, nowhere else.

6) I am 100% for reserves and special officers. They attend the same training as me and do the job, thus earning my respect. I appreciate everything they do and am glad they had made the sacrafice, usually for no money, to do this job. But the bottom line is, and a good reserve or special will openly admit it: the experience level is not the same between them and a full-time officer. It is less. Is that bad? NO!!!!! Does that make them any less of a cop or diminish what they do? NO!!!! But a reserves officers experience is jut not at the same level in most cases. What does make them less of cop is if they take on a piss poor attitude like you, posting it here in a immature fashion....and attacking somebody in a personal matter. Check the forum....you don't even see the young exploers doing such.

7) You state you worked with our Surgeon General. He was an deputy sheriff in the Pima County Sheriff Department in Arizona. He was a full time officer, SWAT Team Medic, SWAT Team Surgeon and later elected as sheriff. He also had a line of duty shooting, where he shot and killed a suspect. That is the only department he worked for and he was paid. I wondered....do reserves with them ride with experienced officers? So, not sure.......

--->I CALLED THEM (520-741-1600)!!!!! THEY HAVE NO RESERVE OR VOLUNTEER OFFICERS WITH POWERS OF ARREST OR WEAPONS OR PEACE OFFICER TRAINING!!!!!!!! THEY DO HAVE A CIVILIAN VOLUNTEER PATROL UNIT...called SAV and I spoke with them at 516-547-6744.

AGAIN...CONFIRMED THIS!!!!!! ALL NON-ARMED...SWORN CIVILIAN POSITION....HAVE A BADGE, ID CARD & UNIFORM.....NO POWERS OF ARREST......DO CRIME PREVNTION AND BASIC DETERRANT PATROL.....AND DO NOT RIDE WITH REGULAR OFFICERS!!!!! They even told me about their webiste: http://www.pimasheriff.org/Vol.htm.

Funny....how did you work with him when they don't have a position for such?

LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

Joey, you really need to stop holding back son. It's just not good for you. :D

[P01IC3M4N]

LEO's that left for more money but still want to "play LEO"-hmmm...bit of a problem

do you think i shouldn't be carrying a firearm then? i'm actively looking for work outside of law enforcement. i've been in this field 10 years and have 8 on the street full-time. i am absolutely looking for more money, normal hours and better benefits with a lot more room for advancement. i worked very hard for my commission and have no intentions of dropping it, as well as the fact that i enjoy doing it. what disqualifies me or is a "bit of a problem" when i do leave, find a nice reserve job and continue teaching at the academy? should i no longer be allowed to teach and train full-time officers? i'm not getting the reasoning behind your argument.

Art. 2.12. Who Are Peace Officers

The following are peace officers:

(1) sheriffs, their deputies, and those reserve deputies who hold a
permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701,
Occupations Code;

(2) constables, deputy constables, and those reserve deputy
constables who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under
Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;

(3) marshals or police officers of an incorporated city, town, or
village, and those reserve municipal police officers who hold a
permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701,
Occupations Code;


no distinction whatsoever.

[blhar15]

Well the bottomline here is there is no clear answer on this. Every department is different. In our department reserves are treated like the full time people and do the same things the full time guys do. In Iowa reserves cannot attend the same full time accademy, but have to go through one sponsored by the local municipality. We also have to do FTO training prior to riding with another reserve. It all depends on the experience level of each person. I would say when it comes to carrying a gun, there are many full time officers that do not even shoot that much versus some that do. Maybe there should have been some language about firearms qualification per department standards annually or something of that sort.

[Deputy757]

do you think i shouldn't be carrying a firearm then? i'm actively looking for work outside of law enforcement.

P01IC3, I would have no problem with you carrying a firearm once you are a civilian. However, if you were in Kentucky, I would expect it to happen under a civilian CCW license rather than HR218.
As has been pointed out over and over again, many states (not Kentucky) require the same training, FTO, etc. that full timers go through. The only problem I have in that instance is that if they are only doing about 96 hours of work a month, they aren't going to retain much of what they have learned from the academy/FTO and aren't going to pick up things that guys/gals that work the streets 40 hours a week do.
You fall in between these two ends of the spectrum in that you've done so much active duty time and will continue to be a reserve AND train other officers. I guess the answer to your question would be no, I don't think you should be ineligible based on all the information.

[coyote135]

757 brings up some good points in reference to the amount of actual street time reserves see each month. But just to throw it out there, some people may feel there is a difference with full-time officers in terms of amounts of experience. I'm not talking time on the job, but depth of police experience. I'm speaking as a former police officer (now a Special Agent/1811) who worked in an urban area AND rural area with two different agencies. Granted I got alot of good experience when I was an officer in a rural area, but nothing can compare to the experience I got when I worked in an urban area. Most people would agree that working in a city under 10,000 people in a rural area where the total county population is maybe 20-30,000 residents would be different than working in a city of 600,000+ in a metro population of over a million. Yes, rural areas see some murders and violent crime, but not in the high numbers and variety of crimes that urban areas do. Again, i'm speaking from personal experience (and looking at the most current UCR stats). Just some thoughts to throw in the mix of things for the discussion here when people are thinking of experience and reserves vs. full-timers....

[Deputy757]

757 brings up some good points in reference to the amount of actual street time reserves see each month. But just to throw it out there, some people may feel there is a difference with full-time officers in terms of amounts of experience. I'm not talking time on the job, but depth of police experience. I'm speaking as a former police officer (now a Special Agent/1811) who worked in an urban area AND rural area with two different agencies. Granted I got alot of good experience when I was an officer in a rural area, but nothing can compare to the experience I got when I worked in an urban area. Most people would agree that working in a city under 10,000 people in a rural area where the total county population is maybe 20-30,000 residents would be different than working in a city of 600,000+ in a metro population of over a million. Yes, rural areas see some murders and violent crime, but not in the high numbers and variety of crimes that urban areas do. Again, i'm speaking from personal experience (and looking at the most current UCR stats). Just some thoughts to throw in the mix of things for the discussion here when people are thinking of experience and reserves vs. full-timers....

Yes, ngcsubutterbar brought that up on page three. While that is true to a degree, I've also worked for both the small rural agency and the larger metropolitan department. The only major crime that I didn't work in the smaller agency was murder. Of course, it wasn't like we were working rapes and armed robberys everyday but they came along every now and then. The difference was that in the smaller agency, I quite often ended up actually working the case. In the larger department, it always resulted in me taking a report and a detective working the case. So I feel I gained quite a bit more experience working for the smaller agency (in that regard). As for other types of calls such as DV, loud party/music, suspicious subjects/vehicles, auto accidents, etc, I'd say it was about even since in the larger department, I only worked a beat...not the entire city.