LEO Safety Warning

[txinvestigator1]

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/f...ticle&id=92565



New Pocket-Sized Gun Could Pose Life-Sized Tactical Threat
Mini-Muzzleloader Hits The Street In Minnesota.

A Minneapolis gun shop has just debuted a new, affordable and easily concealed gun that has the potential to pose a serious tactical threat to officers.

The double-barreled weapon, which retails for $100, is about the size of a credit card and has the potential to deliver quick, damaging wounds to the eyes and face.

Each barrel fires seven standard steel BBs delivered when one of two electric triggers are activated.

Mark Koscielski, owner of Koscielski's Guns and Ammo, manufacturers the gun in suburban Blaine, Minn. with a partner, Patrick Teel. Koscielski calls the gun "the ultimate self-defense weapon," but the fact that it's a muzzle-loader -- the user has to pour a measured amount of gunpowder into each barrel, manually insert a total of 14 BBs (seven in each barrel), and tamp in a small wad of paper —- has some firearms dealers discounting the self-defense angle as "a joke."

"Us guys here would consider something like that useless," said Mike O'Brien, of Joe's Sporting Goods in St. Paul. "A .177 caliber BB is ballistically a joke, OK? I'm sure it could cause injury and damage, but as a self-defense weapon, no. Not to anyone familiar with firearms."

In support of the self-defense claim, Teel says, "This is no more deadly than a .22, but the difference is you have multiple wounds, which means you'll try to get away quicker, and it will cause more pain."

"They are very effective at five to 10 feet," Teel continues, "They're absolutely useless at 20 feet."

The new guns don't count as firearms under federal regulations because they're muzzleloaders, say Koscielski and Teel. It's illegal to carry one in Minnesota without a permit for a concealed handgun, they said, and they both pledged not to sell them to anyone without valid identification and either a carry permit or a purchase permit.

Thirty-seven states have laws that require officials to issue concealed carry permits to qualified applicants and nine others have laws that give officials some discretion over whether someone gets a permit. Only Kansas,Illinois, Nebraska and Wisconsin lack a law allowing some form of concealed carrying of guns.

Koscielski conceded that gun opponents are likely to criticize the new devices, but he said they're legal, will set off metal detectors and are readily identifiable.

PoliceOne advises that you stay alert for these new weapons, particularly if you’re an officer in the Minneapolis area, and take them seriously if found. Also, remain vigilant in watching the hands of anyone you approach.

These small-sized guns serve as a reminder that someone who appears unarmed, may in fact, be secreting a weapon that can deliver a debilitating blow that opens you to further attack. Although slow to load and packed with small caliber ammo, in the wrong hands, these weapons can pose a serious tactical threat.

[Prometheus]

In support of the self-defense claim, Teel says, "This is no more deadly than a .22, but the difference is you have multiple wounds, which means you'll try to get away quicker, and it will cause more pain."

No more deadly than a .22? Somehow, that doesn't make me feel any safer.

However, the thing that worries me the most is that if someone uses this against a cop, he won't run, but rather take advantage of the incapacitation to do further harm.

[Johninaustin]

A piece of junk with no real utility. Exactly the sort of thing I would expect to find in a gun shop. :D

Effective at five feet and worthless at 20. I'm a lot more worried about knives at these distances. Electrically fired? Black powder? Manually loaded one BB at a time? Why do I get the feeling some gun shop commando is going to blow his testicles off with this thing?

[md123]

No more deadly than a .22? Somehow, that doesn't make me feel any safer.

Exactly. A .22LR properly placed will kill you just as a .308 would . . . Not to mention that they can shoot through the exterior/interior walls of most wood houses.

They sell many different types of models of these muzzleloading hand guns via mail-order. I wondered about their falling into the wrong hands . . . Plus, some of these models can take quite a bit of powder, and quite a large sized projectile. No less dangerous that a revolver as far as I can tell, and they are not slow to load if they were packed before they were concealed. It's not like you have to pack them immediately before shooting.

As a matter of fact some mentally ill person was shot by police in NYC a couple of weeks ago. He was holding a gun and refused to drop it after being ordered to so several times. He paid for his choice with his life, but I do believe that he was holding a muzzle-loading handgun at the time. I remember reading that it would not have fired if he tried, but I do not know why. no primer?

update: 2 articles I just read described the gun as a 'looking like an antique,' and another as 'looking like a starter pistol.'

[scott715us]

I am just waiting on the first person to load it with too much gunpowder.

Thanks for the info TX. I just forwarded the link to the rest of the guys here at the PD. Something else to pop up for the screeners here at the airport as well. ;)

[Lfpdlieu302]

i just saw this on fox news. amazing that they say it is no more deadly than a .22. considering that a .22 is actually a very deadly round with its ability to ricochet in the body.

[mcsap]

Misd 1 to have this "toy" in PA.

[ngcsubutterbar]

the only thing this is going to do is make it so little ninnies can make new legislation to 'protect' people from these, but will do nothing more than make bb or more importantly airsoft guns illegal.

What it comes down to is the fps on these little things.

[ngcsubutterbar]

i just saw this on fox news. amazing that they say it is no more deadly than a .22. considering that a .22 is actually a very deadly round with its ability to ricochet in the body.

they used to use silenced .22 rifles for crowd control, because they at a time thought the .22 wasn't deadly. sound familiar?

[Legoate]

I think the danger of these weapons is your failure to recognize them immediately during a search. If I search a person and feel a knife in their pocket, I'll take it before I put them in my car. Something like this may go unrecognized during a patdown search...it would likely feel like a lighter, pager, cell phone etc...I wouldn't want this thing going off from my backseat while I was looking the person up in the computer.

On the other hand...if I accidentally set if off while it was still in the person's pants during a patdown search.......how "very unfortunate".

[Ranger__101]

With so many new types of weapons out. Damm near anything can be hidden.

It won't be long before everything will be taken off the person before they are put it the back seat. Persons are definitally going to be made to keep their hands in plain view for the Officers safety.