Patrol Rifle Legal Question

[MikeG]

What are the legal requirements for purchasing a patrol rifle with a short barrel? Can the LE officer purchase it for themselves through the department and it's still his property or does it have to be owned by the department? I see these rifles for sale for LE but it doesn't seem many officers carry them and I don't understand why.

The agency allows officers to purchase their own patrol rifle but I want to make sure they own it after the purchase and it doesn't have to be returned because of NFA requirement. Is it just a matter of paying the $200 transfer tax?

The Bushmaster Carbon-15 is an example.

[Kimble]

For all 3 LE agencies I've worked for, officers/agents could purchase long guns to own and use for duty carry so long as 1) the weapon was allowed by agency policy and 2) the officer/agent had qualified on it and been officially granted permission to carry it in writing by management.

[Joeyd6]

I could be wrong, but if you are buying it, and leave the agency, my understanding according to documents provided to us by the ATF imply the gun will not go with you if it has a short barrel or is automatic. That is why some will buy their own without the said two features. The whole short barrel and automatic ie are heaviliy regulated and even as an agent with a SBR with SAF, I have to guard that thing with my life, as when one goes missing, the paperwork is RIDICULOUS, and the government owns the damn thing.

[Switchback]

In addition to what Joey said, if it requires a stamp and you are purchasing it, YOU need the stamp.

I have an agency-owned short-barreled AR, but it is theirs. By our policy, we are permitted to use personally-owned weapons (that meet some basic requirements), but we are not permitted to use any personally-owned weapons that would require an ATF stamp (even if we have the stamp).

[MikeG]

Thanks guys. Sounds like there is a definite hassle factor with LE owning and using SBRs. The Orders manuals don't list any restrictions other than caliber and manufacturer but I suspect there are other rules like you guys mention above that they just didn't put in the book.

Now choice is between stock, semi-auto Steyr-Aug or Colt AR-15 variant (only 2 rifles approved for patrol). AR-15 list price is almost half SA list price and would make decision no brainer if SBR was realistic option. Officer in question has practically no rifle experience so there is no built-in preference. Probably will still end up with AR-15 because of it's commonality and cost.

[Buffboy]

Mike, If you haven't already, shoot a bullpup (Steyr-Aug) or short barreled carbine before you lay out big bucks for either.

The SA is not a bad rifle but it's not for everybody. I had a dealer friend back in the 80s that had both full auto and semi auto versions. I got to play with his quite a bit. I personally think: Meh, over-hyped & over-priced, if it was the same price as an AR, I might own one but otherwise, pass. Oh, by the way, price the magazines for those little darlings.

The Carbon 15s aren't bad rifles either, I like the several I've handled and the one I've shot. They are gloriously lightweight and I haven't heard much negative about them. I plan to add one to my personal battery as funds allow. They are about the same price as a normal AR.

[basher52]

What are the legal requirements for purchasing a patrol rifle with a short barrel? Can the LE officer purchase it for themselves through the department and it's still his property or does it have to be owned by the department? I see these rifles for sale for LE but it doesn't seem many officers carry them and I don't understand why.

The agency allows officers to purchase their own patrol rifle but I want to make sure they own it after the purchase and it doesn't have to be returned because of NFA requirement. Is it just a matter of paying the $200 transfer tax?

The Bushmaster Carbon-15 is an example.

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit...But, if you are honestly looking for a patrol rifle, why in God's name would you even consider a gun like the Carbon 15? The shortest that is recommended would be a 14", like the 6930 Colt M4. Fits nice in the car and great for entry work, will also shoot a decent distance if you need to. 12" AR are nice, but IMHO are only good as an entry weapon, useless if you need to take a longer shot while under stress.

If your state regs allow class 3 weapons for civillians, then the stamp should cover your purchase and be good after your employ.

[MikeG]

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit...But, if you are honestly looking for a patrol rifle, why in God's name would you even consider a gun like the Carbon 15? The shortest that is recommended would be a 14", like the 6930 Colt M4. Fits nice in the car and great for entry work, will also shoot a decent distance if you need to. 12" AR are nice, but IMHO are only good as an entry weapon, useless if you need to take a longer shot while under stress.

If your state regs allow class 3 weapons for civillians, then the stamp should cover your purchase and be good after your employ.

I would certainly look at other SBR's if they are on approved manufacturer list. I wanted more to understand the ramifications and legalities of having a SBR as a patrol rifle. The Bushmaster is on the list of manufacturers but models are not listed and I just chose one of their SBR's as an example.

The reasoning for an SBR was to get more use out of it in what is routine patrol functions. Example would be a burglary alarm investigation after hours. Use would be clearing a building. As I understand it, shortening the rifle allows more control to manipulate things like door handles and is smaller when slung out of the way for cuffing and arrest. My personal interest is in finding a rifle that the patrol person will use as often as possible and I think that means it has to be rather unobtrusive, easy to sling out the way, etc, etc.

I didn't understand why SBRs are not more common in patrol vehicles when it has some clear advantages in some areas especially when non-SBR 16" bullpup designs have found their way into patrol cars and I think I got my answer above with the paperwork hassles as well as department policies. I suspect there are even more civil hassles if you actually end up shooting someone with an NFA weapon.

[Switchback]

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit...But, if you are honestly looking for a patrol rifle, why in God's name would you even consider a gun like the Carbon 15? The shortest that is recommended would be a 14", like the 6930 Colt M4. Fits nice in the car and great for entry work, will also shoot a decent distance if you need to. 12" AR are nice, but IMHO are only good as an entry weapon, useless if you need to take a longer shot while under stress.

If your state regs allow class 3 weapons for civillians, then the stamp should cover your purchase and be good after your employ.

I have to disagree about the barrel length. It all depends on what you do, of course. However, don't think that the gun is inaccurate just because it has a short barrel. I have no problem holding 3MOA with my 6.5" barreled AR. The gun shoots better than the average shooter. So, I would be hard-pressed to say that it is only good as an entry weapon.

[MikeG]

M
The SA is not a bad rifle but it's not for everybody. I had a dealer friend back in the 80s that had both full auto and semi auto versions. I got to play with his quite a bit. I personally think: Meh, over-hyped & over-priced, if it was the same price as an AR, I might own one but otherwise, pass. Oh, by the way, price the magazines for those little darlings.

From what I can see, the only advantage to SA is overall size is smaller. The AR's have a lot more intangible benefits such as very common, likely to have other officers with AR (same sight picture, operations, magazines, familiarity, etc). The SBR came into play in an effort to get SA size in more standard package. For same price as stock SA, an AR SBR with very good optics can be had. I didn't understand why this wasn't more common.

Right now I am just working list of things to shoot and don't want to pick something that just out of the question.

For a first patrol rifle, it will probably be "what every one else has" (which is 16" barrel, AR) until they use it and see what features they like and dislike. KISS principle.

[Buffboy]

Nothing wrong with 16" AR-15, KISS indeed, a good proven design, good accuracy and doesn't cost the moon. They are reasonably compact as well. That's what I have as a patrol rifle.


It may be out of the question with your administration but consider, if you are allowed to use Bushmaster as a manufacturer, you might look at their M-17S.

An example: Bushmaster M17S bullpup w/ red dot/green dot M17 S : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

I had an early one(pre-bushmaster manufacture/preban). Mine was not a very accurate rifle but I did buy it used and I suspect that it had been VERY used by the previous owner. I don't think it's still in production but they aren't bad for price in used condition. They are still around NIB for a bit more and parts are still available from Bushmaster.

They are NOT a "bull-pupped" AR, though they do use some parts including magazines from them. They use a piston gas system quite different from the AR-15. They are not particularly light either.

[MountainMan]

I really like an SBR Ar. I will be building a 10.5 soon. The shorter barrels are loud. 10.5 is about as short you want to go and suppress. A 7.5 will split a can far more and most manufacturers won't honor a warranty on anything smaller than a 10.5.

I really like to use an SBR based on most common use and our policy. But not everyone understands the benefits or the limitations.

[MikeG]

I really like an SBR Ar. I will be building a 10.5 soon. The shorter barrels are loud. 10.5 is about as short you want to go and suppress. A 7.5 will split a can far more and most manufacturers won't honor a warranty on anything smaller than a 10.5.

I really like to use an SBR based on most common use and our policy. But not everyone understands the benefits or the limitations.

What are the benefits suppressors on patrol rifle? For patrol, would you rather have a 12" barrel with 4" suppressor or a 16" barrel with a good flash hider? I am not familiar with the benefits of suppressors )other than the obvious sound suppression). Do they provide barrel compensation or add to ballistic flight stability to the round?

[cntryboy0531]

With my agency, regular deputies are not allowed anything automatic or short barreled, even if you own it and have the stamps for it. SWAT are the only ones allowed those and the department provides them. Personally owned weapons of the sort are not allowed.

Now, we can buy our own shotgun and rifle if we choose (department supplies both) but they are required to be within policy (No auto, SBR, etc..)

[MountainMan]

What are the benefits suppressors on patrol rifle? For patrol, would you rather have a 12" barrel with 4" suppressor or a 16" barrel with a good flash hider? I am not familiar with the benefits of suppressors )other than the obvious sound suppression). Do they provide barrel compensation or add to ballistic flight stability to the round?

Sorry about the delay. Apparently I am not getting e-mail updates. The sole reason for the suppressor is so that I don't destroy my hearing. I don't know of anyone that carries or would use hearing protection when you deploy a rifle in a patrol setting. If you have ever had someone shoot a rifle beside you you will appreciate suppressed one.

I am told that a well built suppressor will actually increase muzzle velocity and that is certainly a benefit with a short barrelled AR.