Enlisted or Officer

[retdetsgt]

I saw a SGM get UCMJ charges for sleeping with enlisted females, 2 majors busted for corruption (Iraqi reconstruction projects in the Green Zone), a Captain busted for adultery, a major receive multiple DUIs, E-8 busted for fraud with Iraqi contractors and having a fully stocked bar in his living quarters, etc., etc. etc. I could go on forever. The most memorable was a 1LT that threatened to kill a battalion commander in front of an audience. He was relieved of his XO duties and received a negative letter but no UCMJ. He had an honorable discharge on his 214 but anytime he has a background investigation it obviously hurts. I have applied to many different agencies and they always ask if you "have ever been charged" or "faced judicial punishment." It sounded to me as if you don't have to be convicted but you should put down anything questionable about your history because it could look like deception when the background investigator finds it and they seem to find out everything.

I was in before females (other than nurses) did any front line stuff. They were still WAC's and assigned mostly to secretarial functions. Fraternization wasn't much of a problem.

We also didn't have any civilian contractors to speak of. Vietnam made a few senior NCO's fairly wealthy, but I'm not going to get into that in a public forum.

Most agencies aren't going to track down your previous military commanders and interview them. They take the DD214 at face value.

[TSOC357]

Most agencies aren't going to track down your previous military commanders and interview them. They take the DD214 at face value.

The only time I have been called by anyone was when one of my former Soldiers gave them my info and I was used as a reference. That's it.

[TSOC357]

Again, I've been out for a long time, but the infantry used to be pretty forgiving. .

Now days, it seems like it depends entirely on the unit. I've been in units that were hard core and gave no second chances for major screw ups. I've also been units that let folks get away with a lot but they paid the price to stay around.

My take is if a guy/gal is a good Soliders and they had a huge brain fart (other than something really illegal) give them another chance to prove themselves. If they do, good for them. If not, boot them and get it over with.

I've had a few Soldiers that just needed to go away because they were bringing morale down in the unit with their antics and it wasn't good for anyone. I've had a few that just screwed up, took the punishment, and became just as good or even better Soliders than before.

Seems like some of thre newer generation are real knotheads at times and need to be guided better than they use to.

[osujl]

Multiple agencies contacted my military supervisors and co-workers with lengthy interviews

[retdetsgt]

Now days, it seems like it depends entirely on the unit. I've been in units that were hard core and gave no second chances for major screw ups. I've also been units that let folks get away with a lot but they paid the price to stay around.

My take is if a guy/gal is a good Soliders and they had a huge brain fart (other than something really illegal) give them another chance to prove themselves. If they do, good for them. If not, boot them and get it over with.

Back then, going to infantry from somewhere else was kind of a second chance or do over. If you succeeded, then it was a fresh start. If not, you would probably be stockade material at some point.

Also bear in mind I was in the time of the draft. And contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe, a lot draftees made pretty good soldiers. It was after Vietnam dragged on that they started lowering the standards for who was eligible to be drafted. That may be a factor with the volunteer Army, they might be lowering standards in order to enlist?

I still think the draft is a good idea. Not only because it's good for some people to have to serve, I think it had a good influence on the military to have a more diverse group of people coming through it. And I also believe that the draft gave the military the ability to be less tolerant of some behaviors.

I was thinking of what osujl said about that Lt. who threatened the battalion commander. He said he got a letter in his file. In my day, he would have been in the stockade. That sort of crap wasn't tolerated and everyone knew it. I can't think of a much worse moral destroyer than not locking him up after doing in front of a group of people. I'd been told by my CO that he didn't like my attitude because I was passively insolent, but even that was pushing the line. An outward remark much less than a threat could have put me in serious grease.

My youngest daughter went in the Navy around 1992 or so. I couldn't believe some of the things she told me about what recruits got away with in basic. The more bad behavior you tolerate, the more you have to put up with. I saw that raising kids and in my department. But when I was in the Army, you knew that if you stepped over the line, they would make your life miserable. And if you got the least bit cute, you were sent home with a BCD or worse. We were told that frequently and I saw it done enough to believe it.

[retdetsgt]

Multiple agencies contacted my military supervisors and co-workers with lengthy interviews

Have you any experience anywhere but school and the military?

They contacted people from back home from before I went in and my last employer, plus references I gave them. But I only gave fairly vague info regarding my military stations and assignments. They would have had to have worked to get to them. In fact, at one point before it was all sealed by law, I was able to read my BI and no military was in there.

[TSOC357]

Back then, going to infantry from somewhere else was kind of a second chance or do over.

I think I had an older Uncle that had that chance. At least that's what my Mom always claimed when she talked about him and rolled her eyes.

they might be lowering standards in order to enlist?

We are. I get Soldiers straight out of Basic/AIT that still have issues being motovated to work and do their job. Even after 18 weeks of fun down at Fort Lost in the Woods. They are use to sitting around playing video games all day, watching TV and not doing a damn thing. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and didn't have that luxury.

I know that we started taking kids that have no HS Diploma and some convicts that have low end felonies. Luckily, the MP Corps still is maintining itself and they can't get clearences. Which is a good thing. Don't get me wrong, we still get knuckleheads that have no business doing the Law and Order mission. Just have to have good NCOs watching over them all the time.

I still think the draft is a good idea.

So do I. I think it should be like Germany does. 3 years of Military Service and you get your college/tech school paid for. Don't want Military service? Fine. Do something else for your community then when you get out, you get your college paid for.

I was thinking of what osujl said about that Lt. who threatened the battalion commander. He said he got a letter in his file. In my day, he would have been in the stockade.

Never happen with the Commanders I have had thus far in my career. Never happen.

[retdetsgt]

I know that we started taking kids that have no HS Diploma and some convicts that have low end felonies. Luckily, the MP Corps still is maintining itself and they can't get clearences. Which is a good thing. Don't get me wrong, we still get knuckleheads that have no business doing the Law and Order mission. Just have to have good NCOs watching over them all the time.

I had a MIP beer when I was 16 and wasn't sure the Army would take me. The recruiter hemmed and hawed for a while, but I had pretty high AFQT score and I think that helped. Before I got out, they were taking low end felons too. I'm glad I was in and out of Vietnam before it got that bad.

Never happen with the Commanders I have had thus far in my career. Never happen.

Yeah, the more I think about that, the more it boggles my mind. I just can't visualize anything but that Lt. being taken into custody immediately and facing a general court martial.

osujl was definitely in a different military culture than I was ever in.

[Trip]

Seems like some of thre newer generation are real knotheads at times and need to be guided better than they use to.

I find that to be true in my different lines of work as well. Big brains, but nothing in the brain that connects the dots....overdependence on technology has given them one great big brain fart....

[retdetsgt]

I find that to be true in my different lines of work as well. Big brains, but nothing in the brain that connects the dots....overdependence on technology has given them one great big brain fart....

To be fair, there's not much of a chance for most kids to learn work ethic any more. With all the illegals, it's hard for a kid around here to get a job at a McDonald's.

Like TSOC357, it seems I always had a job of some sort. I started bagging groceries when I was 11 (before those pesky child labor laws). I preferred doing anything to avoid having to work for my Dad, he was the worst to work for.

I see kids coming out of college and starting with us who have no idea what it means to give a day's work for a day's wages. They think it's like school, if they don't have an assignment, then they're free to do what they want.

I hounded both my kids to get part time jobs as soon as they turned 16. They looked at me like I was nuts, but once they realized they could do whatever they wanted with the money they made, they got a completely different view of it.

[Ispbear]

We are. I get Soldiers straight out of Basic/AIT that still have issues being motovated to work and do their job. Even after 18 weeks of fun down at Fort Lost in the Woods. They are use to sitting around playing video games all day, watching TV and not doing a damn thing. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and didn't have that luxury.

That's the problem, your an Iowa farm boy. You were use to getting up and doing 2 hours of chores before you went to school and then coming home to do more chores. The city kids don't get the kick in the rear end like you were use to.

[osujl]

Yeah, the more I think about that, the more it boggles my mind. I just can't visualize anything but that Lt. being taken into custody immediately and facing a general court martial.

osujl was definitely in a different military culture than I was ever in.

For the record that LT was taken into custody after making the comment. Long story short LT has a rough year in Iraq returns home and suffers from depression, LT turns to alcohol and things get bad, LT begins sexual relationship with young enlisted female and things get worse, LT comes under investigation and is called into a waiting room of officers to be questioned, LT goes crazy and threatens a LTC, the door is closed calls are made and the guy is whisked away to the psych ward. Five weeks later he shows back up with more medication than your local pharmacy and is totally calm. He received the negative letter and he was relieved of his duty position and sent to a staff job where he pushed paper for the remainder of his time. This guy did great things in Iraq, he was a well respected combat leader (respected by both the enlisted and Officer side) so I am sure that was taken into consideration when dishing out the punishment. That and he was obviously suffering from severe PTSD and I mean the real deal. He took part in alot of brutal combat and he did a great job downrange. He ended up making one hell of a paper pusher, was a great staff guy who worked hard for everybody and he got his life back on track. His career was over and he knew it but he was just happy to be himself again. We were happy that he received the proper help and he didn't end up as a negative statistic. Thankfully stories like this are the rare exception and not the standard norm. Hope that provides some clarity.

The guy was honorably discharged and I was told he had a clean 214.

[Trip]

LT goes crazy and threatens a LTC, the door is closed calls are made and the guy is whisked away to the psych ward. Five weeks later he shows back up with more medication than your local pharmacy and is totally calm. He received the negative letter and he was relieved of his duty position and sent to a staff job where he pushed paper for the remainder of his time. This guy did great things in Iraq, he was a well respected combat leader (respected by both the enlisted and Officer side) so I am sure that was taken into consideration when dishing out the punishment. That and he was obviously suffering from severe PTSD .

Yep, can you spell PTSD. Saw a lot of things people did (to lesser degrees) while in Iraq that were allowed to "slide" because usually it was like Stryker folks or some constantly "engaged" folks who were doing such a bang up job taking down bad guys and dealing with constant ambiguity. For example, early in the war, I was working closely with this Army Colonel acting as "team lead" for Petraeus who was finally getting to go home, and when his replacement shows up ...a guy who's a West Point Colonel with stellar creds ....well, I'm riding home in the vehicle with both of them after being told about the turnover.....but getting the heebee jeebees like you wouldn't believe from the new Colonel who just seems "vacant" .....and somehow doesn't get the position afterall....but anyway, about two months after I have finally left Iraq the first time, the original Colonel emails me that this replacement I had the heebee jeebees about has committed suicide. The war was going extremely poorly at that point, and it was a lot of pressure on these particular Colonels.... but anyway, he had been a big star up to that point and the pressure was just too much. The things I've seen our soldiers and marines do would make you proud beyond belief...especially all the soldiers I worked so closely around.....and why I promised myself I will buy a U.S. soldier a drink anytime I ever happen to see one in a bar stateside....

[Trip]

I hounded both my kids to get part time jobs as soon as they turned 16. They looked at me like I was nuts,

My parents didn't even have to hound us...I came from a big family and my brothers and I were doing stuff at age 10 or 11....like mowing lawns, newspaper routes, selling Christmas cards.... heck we even went and helped a farmer that was friends with one of my brothers and helped pick his tomatoes along with the migrant workers....we thought we were rich compared to the paper route, LOL....

[retdetsgt]

For the record that LT was taken into custody after making the comment. Long story short LT has a rough year in Iraq returns home and suffers from depression, LT turns to alcohol and things get bad, LT begins sexual relationship with young enlisted female and things get worse, LT comes under investigation and is called into a waiting room of officers to be questioned, LT goes crazy and threatens a LTC, the door is closed calls are made and the guy is whisked away to the psych ward. Five weeks later he shows back up with more medication than your local pharmacy and is totally calm. He received the negative letter and he was relieved of his duty position and sent to a staff job where he pushed paper for the remainder of his time. This guy did great things in Iraq, he was a well respected combat leader (respected by both the enlisted and Officer side) so I am sure that was taken into consideration when dishing out the punishment. That and he was obviously suffering from severe PTSD and I mean the real deal. He took part in alot of brutal combat and he did a great job downrange. He ended up making one hell of a paper pusher, was a great staff guy who worked hard for everybody and he got his life back on track. His career was over and he knew it but he was just happy to be himself again. We were happy that he received the proper help and he didn't end up as a negative statistic. Thankfully stories like this are the rare exception and not the standard norm. Hope that provides some clarity.

The guy was honorably discharged and I was told he had a clean 214.

Thanks, that makes more sense.