ICE and FLETC-A woman's perspective

[dnj1107]

Big,
You do not have to have been to FLETC to have heard others experiences. Maybe, I can take the advice with a little grain of salt, but it is always good to hear others' experiences. You don't have to have been IN the Holocaust to have heard the stories and pass on stories of those experiences.

[Jennifer]

BIG has to ask, what differences would you expect to see? Different color applications? Different rooms for male & female interviewees?

If you haven't been hired, are not an employee, have never been to FLETC, not an ICE LEO, what differences can you reasonably speak upon?

And this is what the poster asked:

Are there any women out there that have been through FLETC, work within a federal agency, or are anywhere in the hiring process that can share their experiences. Help some fellow sisters learn from your experiences!

And I would not expect any differences. I'm not the one who asked the question. And if there are subtle differences regarding USMS hiring and ICE hiring then I apologize for speaking in general terms.

[Switchback]

...You claim FLETC is much like college, and I am sure that I had a different college experience than some men have had. It is very narrow-minded to assume that everyone is always treated equally...

You are right, that would be narrow-minded. However, it is even more narrow-minded to assume that the different experiences are based solely on race or sex. With your attitude, before your feet are even on the ground, seem to indicate you may very well be the type of agent that may have difficulties in LE. Apparently, you are already poised to file EEO complaints in the event things do not go the way you like, regardless of considering there may be OTHER reasons.

By all means, if there is mistreatment, go that route. However, it's sickening to see people testing the waters before they're even hired... and that is EXACTLY the sense I get from reading your posts.


...and I can't wait for Blue to come on here either. She will be the first to speak how this attitude hurts her and other hard-working females in LEO more than anyone else.

[Switchback]

Big,
You do not have to have been to FLETC to have heard others experiences. Maybe, I can take the advice with a little grain of salt, but it is always good to hear others' experiences. You don't have to have been IN the Holocaust to have heard the stories and pass on stories of those experiences.

You need only have been female, Big.

...and with that, I am done with this farse.

[Joeyd6]

It is very narrow-minded to assume that everyone is always treated equally. In a perfect world, yes, there would be no difference in the treatment of men and women. In a perfect world women would always be paid the same as a man for the same job

You might want to find a new line of work. You are what I call an EEO waiting to happen and will have many problems in LE, a place mostly filled with men. You work hard at hiding your real opinion or point of view, but many of us on here who are seasoned cops see right through it. YOU see a difference between men and women in LE. YOU are the one trying to clarify that with all these questions. YOU are making that a problem for YOURSELF. YOU will make it a problem for others.

REALITY is that this world is imperfect, and thus said, my post was simply an inquiry to find out if the imperfections of this world are transferred to the FLETC academy.

THOUSANDS of men and women have gone through FLETC. THOUSANDS. Hundreds and quite possibly a thousand have posted here and on other boards. In my 12 years of law enforcement, I have never seen, heard or been asked about the differences for men/women in a academy except for a sociological research paper. Anyone going in this field should be more concerned about the program in general than what minor (if any) differences there are because one candidate has penis and another has a vagina. If this is your concern now (vs. how to accomplish the training program), your priorities are seriously out of wack!

I understand everyone has their own opinions, and I was aware this post would probably offend some males.

See....YOU said "males." I don't see males or females on here. I see BLUE. And your not offending me, your making me angry. You can't see the real pictures. I don't care if you have on boxers or a thong with push-up bra. I don't care if you are yellow, green, white, blue, black, brown, etc... All I care about is you know the law, have my back, and can do the job.

Reviewing the different posts within this thread proves to me that there is a difference in the way men and women experience certain aspects of FLETC. But thank you for all of the advice offered, because you have made it clear that although there are not major differences there are indeed SOME differences.

Really? Which post? Each has a number. I seem to be confused where any post depicts a difference on th male vs. female level, other than PT standards? You are disillusioned if you see any other differences.

[dnj1107]

Make what assumptions you will about me, that is fine. However, you should not assume you know a person's character by a post. I face situations and handle them as they come. I am not the type of person who is looking for any hand-out or special treatment. You continue to insist that I am assuming there are differences for men and women by me beginning this thread, but I must reinterate that I only began the post to find out IF there are any differences. Let me give you an example as to why I even began this thread to hopefully clear things up...I have read on other posts that some women have had difficulty with the firearms training because the sig p229 that is used is not made for smaller hands. One person even stated that 4 women failed out because of it. Having this information let's me know that I need to be prepared for using this style gun. I have read many threads to prepare myself for what to expect, not based on gender. I believe in always being prepared, and any information I can gather before FLETC will be beneficial.

[GoDirectly2Jail]

Sorry, but if your REAL question had been about firearms, you would have asked about firearms in the first place. Your statement:

However, you should not assume you know a person's character by a post.

...is a fallacy. Character is demonstrated by an individual. To say it can be assumed is an example of revisionist correctness.

[nyctrainer8]

Dnj,

I think I understand your original question, but I have to pass on a little advice. I am down at FLETC right now, and one thing that you have to understand (especially in a LE environment, here included) is that how you say something can be just as important as what you say. Even if you claim that your original question was intended to mean one thing, the way it was phrased raised some red flags.

I defer to the moderators of this site on clarifying that point to you further should you ask them to. They are an experienced group and they know what they are talking about. Further, believe it or not after your experience here, they actually do want to help people in your position. I know that they did help me on several occasions before, during and after the application process.

From my reading of this post thus far, it seems as though you resisted their best efforts to help and offer constructive advice. A wise man once told me that if you find yourself in a deep hole, the best thing you can do is STOP DIGGING. It may be worth trying to push the reset button and finding a new way to ask your original question.

[BP348]

I think I understand your original question, but I have to pass on a little advice. I am down at FLETC right now, and one thing that you have to understand (especially in a LE environment, here included) is that how you say something can be just as important as what you say. Even if you claim that your original question was intended to mean one thing, the way it was phrased raised some red flags.

The above was very well said. If you wanted to know about certain aspects of the academy that may be difficult because you are a female you should have said that. Your original post came across the wrong way. As far as the firearms question goes, I would bet it had to do with not having good forearm strength more then the weapon. You might do a simple test and have no problem pulling a trigger 25 times in a row. But what happens if you have to pull the trigger 150+ times during firearms training? It gets harder and not just for females I know a few guys that had problems.

Remedial training is offered to everyone. If you want it you will overcome every obstacle to reach your goal. I spent hours doing extra PT so I would pass our PT exam and I spent even more time in the Spanish lab working on my Spanish so I wouldn't flunk out.

I'm a father with two daughters and I tell both of them that it doesn’t matter what they want to do in life they are going to have to do their best and beat out others. That includes finding ways to overcome all obstacles that may keep them from their goal. No one is going to give you anything and that includes life, your academy instructors, your RAC, & your SAC.

You are way ahead of the game if you are waiting on an academy position; there are thousands of people out there that wish they were in your shoes.

"I am not the type of person who is looking for any hand-out or special treatment." Live up to these words ....Male or female, black, brown, white, or yellow it doesn’t matter!!! Don't be the girl in the office everyone is afraid to have around because if they accidently say fukk you're going to file an EEO. Be that AGENT in the office that everyone wants backing them up when the sh!t hits the fan.

[Cat_Doc]

It has been my experience that females (in general) wish to be treated the same as males; until you do so.

[bluelightzgrl]

Where's Blue when you need her?

You called?

I absolutely agree with the other women in that I want to be treated equally. My question was only to find out if they ARE treated equally, and to find out if they seemed to have more difficulty with certain aspects of FLETC.

First off, any “woman” that comes into this line of work saying (requesting or asking) if “we” are treated differently has already made the assumption that as a female you will be treated differently. Sounds to me like you are already gearing up to play that childish game with your soon to be male co-workers, and honey that is the wrong answer here, on the streets or in the LEO office.

This job does not afford you the luxury of race, religion OR gender. So get over the fact that you have different anatomy than some of your co-workers. You want to do the job, then suck it up and prove that you have what it takes to do what is considered a male dominated field.

It is very narrow-minded to assume that everyone is always treated equally.

Very true. So you work a little harder, in the office, in the gym to level the playing field.

I have been a cop for 10 years now; all of it in the Federal system. I started out as a Military Police Paratrooper. For a female, that is rare and hard to find unless you are actually in an Airborne unit. Which even then out of 190 soldiers (in our unit), there was less than 20 of us (by us I mean Airborne qualified female soldiers). Was I treated differently? Maybe. Did the men trust me a little less? At first, yes. Why? Because they were afraid that I was going to be THAT woman who came in screaming and crying about being treated equally. Like me, love me, hate me. I don’t care, but you will work with me and you will back me up when I call or you better pray I don’t live cause I’ll be the one who kicks the cr@p out of you for failure.

...and I can't wait for Blue to come on here either. She will be the first to speak how this attitude hurts her and other hard-working females in LEO more than anyone else.

Thank you Switch.

…and Switch is right. Your attitude and demeanor is what gives the rest of us females a bad rep. Your simple statement and attitude is what will keep any man you work with at a distance from you and cause them to not trust you. Why? Because you come in with your “oh I am a woman and must be treated equal, but I need lower fit standards… I need time to breast feed, I need… I need… I must be treated…” blah blah blah, horsecr@p! You want the job; put your big girl panties on and do the d@mn job or I’ll be the first one to run you off! Women like you put the lives and reputations of my male co-workers at stake. You jeopardize a working relationship that some of us women (who can actual stand up and do the job like a man,) have worked very hard for. You want to be here? Then when you are on the clock, forget you have boobs grow a set of imaginary balls and do the bloody job!


…and frankly I find your post insulting to those of us “women” cops already out here doing the job.


-blue

You might want to find a new line of work. You are what I call an EEO waiting to happen and will have many problems in LE, a place mostly filled with men. You work hard at hiding your real opinion or point of view, but many of us on here who are seasoned cops see right through it. YOU see a difference between men and women in LE. YOU are the one trying to clarify that with all these questions. YOU are making that a problem for YOURSELF. YOU will make it a problem for others.

Joey, as always the wisdom of your years speaks through your post like the first beautiful warm day of spring. +1

[dnj1107]

The offense that has been taken by many of the responders to this thread I still do not understand, but so be it. If preparing myself to make it through FLETC without failure offends you, then so be it. I do not apologize for preparing myself for success. Every woman who has responded, whether they liked my original post or not, has responded with a statement that YES there are aspects that may be more physically challenging. So with that said, my question is answered and I thank you all for your advice. I will continue to work hard and prepare myself physically for the challenge that lies ahead. My character will speak for itself when I get there. Thanks to you all...even the negative ones.

[Citicop]

The OP has gotten the answers she sought.

(Even if she didn't like some of them.)

I think this has probably gone as long as is reasonable.

-Citicop.