JD Degree or LEO?

[FlyMIA]

So here is the question I have been thinking of a lot lately. I will be entering my Junior year of College in a few months (currently a sophmore) I am double majoring in International Affairs (security and conflict) and geography. The dilemma I am having is what should I do after college. Should I go to law school and get a JD or apply for a local LE agency? My goal is to become an 1811 with DEA,USMS,FBI or ICE and I am interested in many other agencies. I could be a LEO by age 23 maybe if I found an opening or I could go to law school and get out at 24 and maybe work for a DA office. What would a Federal Agency prefer actual law enforcement experience or would a JD with experience working for a DA office be better? I don’t see a point in going to law school and then applying to a local agency though.
If I did go to a decent sized local agency how long does it take to get to detective on average? Is being a patrol officer enough experience to get on a FED agency as an 1811?

Thanks!

[Switchback]

I think most agencies would find a person having a degree and LE experience more attractive than a JD and "other" experience (or no experience).

I know a couple DUSMs/agents with JDs. They are not necessarily the most respected LEOs. This is, by no means, a direct reflection on the degree as much as the individuals. However, there are a ton of OUTSTANDING DUSMs agents that I know that have degrees AND LE experience. The experience of being a police officer really goes a long way in giving an agent/DUSM a "leg up" in the federal realm. Patrol experience and a degree are a great combination in making for an outstanding federal applicant.

[FlyMIA]

Thanks for the advice. If I take the local path the tough part is going to be telling the parents. They hate the idea of me being a patrol officer.

So for the USMS, having a 4 year degree and patrol experience is a good combination. If I did go to a local agency I would not have to worry about making detective as quickly as possible? Would 2-3 years of patrol experience be adequate? I think local patrol would be a great job, but the low salary is not exactly something I am looking for on a long term basis. Don’t get me wrong I know going into LE is not something you go into to make money but it just seems local guys are poorly paid for the work they do.

[mythoss]

Do you think you must make detective in a local agency in order to have a chance to be hired in a federal agency?

[FlyMIA]

Do you think you must make detective in a local agency in order to have a chance to be hired in a federal agency?

The reason I say this is because on the USSS site this comes up for a position as an 1811.

"According to the Office of Personnel Management regulations, non-qualifying law enforcement experience is as follows: Experience as a uniformed law enforcement officer where the principal duties consisted of investigations and arrests involving traffic violations, minor felonies, misdemeanors, and comparable offenses; or in which the major duties involved guarding and protecting property, preventing crimes, and/or legal research without the application of investigative techniques."

I do not know much about what local officers do on large crime scenes (murders, robberies) are they a big part of the investigation also? Is this just a USSS thing?
So would working for USSS UD or USCP be something a Federal Agency would be looking for in a 1811, or is that too much on the security side?

[BP348]

I think local patrol would be a great job, but the low salary is not exactly something I am looking for on a long term basis.

Depending on the agency you would be surprised as to what they make.

Speaking about what they make, you do know that the average Lawyer dosen't make as much as people think. According to payscale.com the average attorney with 1 - 4 years experience makes $64K per year.

Depending on the school most also have $100K in school loans to worry about.

If your heart is set on the FBI then the JD is your best bet. Just about anyother agency a degree with LEO experience is fine. I know 3 USBP guys with a JD. all 3 didn't like being a lawyer, 2 are still with USBP and the other is an 1811 with DSS.

[Group9]

I can tell you how I got hired by two different federal agencies.
I had a JD and experience.

The biggest advantage a JD gives you is:
1. Being used to legal writing, which is all affidavits (search, arrest, interception, whatever) are. I promise you I can tear off an arrest warrant, search warrant, or Title 3 affidavit a lot quicker than most agents, mainly because I understand the principals behind it, and not necessarily just how to do it.
2. Being able to talk on a move level playing feel with prosecutors, and when on the witness stand, with defense attorneys. Being familiar with the rules of evidence is a tremendous advantage when testifying.
3. When asked, "And, exactly where did you go to law school, Mr. Group,?" by some smart *** defense attorney in front of a jury, you can tell him (and yes, that's happened).
4. A different way of looking at investigations and different ways to get things done.

It also makes the legal instruction part of police academy pretty easy to pass.

And, when you are an investigator (and that's what Special Agents are), anything that helps you be a better investigator is a good thing as far as getting the job, and as far as doing the job.

[BSmitty]

Your quote about non-qualifying law enforcement experience (patrol duty, etc) is out of context. The USSS website and other agencies' requirements for taking the TEA exam are to have either a four-year degree, or three years investigative experience, or a combination thereof. Nowadays most have the degree and some LEO or military experience. These requirements go back to at least the 1970s, when I took the test. Back then the requirements specifically mentioned experience with a military investigative or intelligence unit which required writing detailed reports (CID, MI, OSI, NIS, etc); a four-year degree could substitute. The 1811 position is extremely competetive today. If you don't make the cut, would you be happier as an attorney or a cop? Where do you want to be in 10-15 years? An 1811 is more cop (detective) than attorney.

[ElGuapo]

As with every question in law, the answer is "it depends.". I have a JD and I hate practicing law. I am trying to land an 1811 gig. I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer after the first semester of law school, but I decided to stick with it. My advice is to really find out about what law school is like. There are books and blogs about it. Ask yourself if you want to endure three years of hell. Most of my friends in law school lost all desire to practice law by the third year, but we all did because that's basically the only thing we could do. I'm sure if I get hired as a SA in the near future I will say it was a good route, but most days I wish I had joined the BP straight out of undergrad.

Don't get me wrong, there are some decent attorney positions out there. I was in private practice first but couldn't stand it. Now I have a state job and it is much, much better for me and my family. Still, I think about the long road and wonder if I could have paved a better path for myself.

So I would suggest you read a lot about law school and practicing law. Understand that you may end up practicing law for a long time as a default. Is that what you want to do? DO NOT get a law degree for the prestige. Do it because you want to be a lawyer. Keep in mind not only the student loans you will accrue, but the opportunity cost resulting from 3 years of little to no income. If you only practice for a couple of years, it may not be woth it. Uness of course the JD is the main reason you get hired as a SA. It all depends on what you think is best for you. I hope it works out for me. And I hope things work out for you. Feel free to ask me any further questions.

[BP348]

3. When asked, "And, exactly where did you go to law school, Mr. Group,?" by some smart *** defense attorney in front of a jury, you can tell him (and yes, that's happened).

I'd pay money to see that :D

[FlyMIA]

It all depends on what you think is best for you. I hope it works out for me. And I hope things work out for you. Feel free to ask me any further questions.

Thanks for the great advice; my brother is in his 2nd year of law school. All he wants to do is be an attorney. I will think long and hard about this thankfully I still have plenty of time to do so. I could see myself working for the DA or some type of government attorney job I think I would also hate a private practice unless it dealt with aviation but as I hear aviation law is very hard to get into.
Good luck with your 1811 applications!

I can tell you how I got hired by two different federal agencies.
I had a JD and experience.

The biggest advantage a JD gives you is:
1. Being used to legal writing, which is all affidavits (search, arrest, interception, whatever) are. I promise you I can tear off an arrest warrant, search warrant, or Title 3 affidavit a lot quicker than most agents, mainly because I understand the principals behind it, and not necessarily just how to do it.
2. Being able to talk on a move level playing feel with prosecutors, and when on the witness stand, with defense attorneys. Being familiar with the rules of evidence is a tremendous advantage when testifying.
3. When asked, "And, exactly where did you go to law school, Mr. Group,?" by some smart *** defense attorney in front of a jury, you can tell him (and yes, that's happened).
4. A different way of looking at investigations and different ways to get things done.

It also makes the legal instruction part of police academy pretty easy to pass.

And, when you are an investigator (and that's what Special Agents are), anything that helps you be a better investigator is a good thing as far as getting the job, and as far as doing the job.

Thanks for your view point it is exactly what I was looking for. Did you go to law school right after Undergrad? Or after getting LEO experience? Did you ever practice law?

Thanks.

[Group9]

Thanks for the great advice; my brother is in his 2nd year of law school. All he wants to do is be an attorney. I will think long and hard about this thankfully I still have plenty of time to do so. I could see myself working for the DA or some type of government attorney job I think I would also hate a private practice unless it dealt with aviation but as I hear aviation law is very hard to get into.
Good luck with your 1811 applications!




Thanks for your view point it is exactly what I was looking for. Did you go to law school right after Undergrad? Or after getting LEO experience? Did you ever practice law?

Thanks.

I went right after undergrad, and strangely enough, I only went because I thought the law degree would be a good way to get into the FBI. I worked as a prosecutor for three years.

[glockpacker]

I will chime in as someone who never really intended to practice law when I went to law school. I was told by an FBI recruiter while I was still in college that I needed to either learn another language or go to law school. I thought law school would be easier (I thought wrong).

When I sat for the FBI test, we were told at that time (2007) that the FBI was not hiring lawyers, but we should feel free to take the test anyway. That is when I started looking at many other agencies. In the mean time I have taken 2 state bar exams, worked for a Judge, worked privately, and I don't regret my decision a bit. I work with Sheriff's Deputies on a daily basis. Many of them have been working for 10+ years doing investigations and patrol work, and while they understand the "how to" of they job very well, they come to me to explain the "why" and the "legal" ramifications of their work.

The well rounded understanding and exposure that law school and your subsequent work experience will give you: from civil negligence/liability and contracts to the behind the scenes look at the Court system is something I have found very useful.

I know you were looking to have your question answered JD v. LEO experience, but it seems to me that a combination of both of those (if you can stomach it) would put you to the front of the class. I am considering making the move to local law enforcement while I wait to see how my federal apps. play out.

Keep in mind that LEO experience will pay you while you get it, but you will have to pay out for the JD ;)

Food for thought: we should have both just joined BP when we were 18 so that we could have retired at 38.

[Switchback]

...Food for thought: we should have both just joined BP when we were 18 so that we could have retired at 38.

That's not a bad route (if you want to work for the BP). There are better ones, though. My buddy did what I think is the smartest route of all. He went to the Naval Academy at 17 (clock started) and retired from the Navy at 37 to take a job with the USMS as an 1811. He'll go to 37 and have 2 very decent retirements. THAT, my friend, is how it's done. :D

[Nole795]

He went to the Naval Academy at 17 (clock started) and retired from the Navy at 37 to take a job with the USMS as an 1811. He'll go to 37 and have 2 very decent retirements. THAT, my friend, is how it's done. :D

What he is only going to work a few months...I think you meant 57, the mandatory age of retirement for 1811.