Ice ?

[intheaircop2]

I hear that ICE will be no more. Is this true? My friend who is a 1811 told me todat that they ( ICE Agents ) will be going over to CBP. Well what happens to us? Us FAMs can't seem to find a home for longer than a year or so. First FAA then TSA now ICE and maybe CBP next. I heard someone also tell me that the FAM service may be going to Secret Service. I guess it does not matter because the FAM job will never get any better. It seems to get worse every month.

[Group9]

I don't think I would be writing ICE's obituary just yet. I think a lot of people in Congress think that maybe that part of DHS could have been planned out a little better.

Right now, ICE's biggest problem is financial and one of the ideas to fix it is to combine CBP and ICE into one agency. A large part of Customs budget used to be from fees generated by Customs inspections of goods lawfully entering the country. When Customs 1811's were put in with INS 1811's to form ICE, they quit getting any of the fees, which in and of itself would have caused problems. Throw in some bad management decisions and they are having some super growing pains.

I do know a lot of ICE agents who want to go back to the old organization model, but I don't know how likely that is to happen.

[Ranger__101]

One thing I can't figure out is what they were thinking when they put the FPS under ICE in the first place??

The least they could do was put divisions with the same goals under the same umbrella? Customs and Boarder Patrol and Government Building Secuity in the same boat???

[K-9MALY]

Group9, correct assessment with the finances. The U.S. Customs Service used to generate income with user fees, penalties, and pre-NAFTA duties. Clinton helped eradicate most of the dutiable items in an effort to garner more trade from MX. Since we already had a fairly competative playing field with Canada to start with, it didn't do us any good to include them in the "discount" but we did. Anyhoo, when all three countries began to discontinue taxed goods being imported, the U.S. Customs service stopped generating the billions of dollars it had been for decades. We still keep the user fee and assorted revenue items, but the massive money venture we used to have is gone forever. Not withstanding, the CBP merger brings together agencies that have had fierce rivalries on the Hill to the trenches. Stupid? You bet.
The jostling to be the Alpha Male settled with legacy Customs on top, but with some tenacious pulling on the short hairs by the other agencies for a piece of the pie. This has gotten us back to where we were on 09/11/01. A federal system which is bogged down with a bunch of horses asses that have more notions than a dog does farts about which course to take.
The commissioner of CBP is Bonner, and he is the apitomy of the wrong guy for leading our nations largest Law Enforcement agency. Sorry Chewy, I know I said Law Enforcement agency in the same sentence with Bonners name!

[Clint]

Like any good Business, It's a hostile take-over. Get over it. It was a mistake to seperate ICE, from CBP, the two go hand & hand, ICE is a valueable assett and they, "CBP & ICE", complement each other nicely. Glad to have them back home where they belong!!!!!

[Group9]

It's kind of funny now, to hear ICE legacy Customs agents talk about what a cozy relationship they had with the Customs Inspectors pre-DHS. Back then, they fought like cats and dogs over jurisdiction, but to hear them describe it now, it sounds like it was just one big lovefest at the ports and airports.

[Kimble]

The following are possible senarios (and presently rumors) that have been brought up numerous times on FLE-related websites:
1) ICE OI will be combined with CBP
2) The OI of ICE will go back to their original departments (i.e. Customs to DoTreas and Immigration to DOJ)- Perhaps FAMS would return to TSA if this happens (?)
3) Things will stay the way they are
4) CBP will develop their own OI (with 1811s) to do work that is somehow different from the work ICE is doing

Of these senarios, I think 1 #'s and 3 are the most likely to occur. Which it will be will only unfold with time. Whatever happens, I just hope the hiring freeze is lifted soon.

[chewy]

It's kind of funny now, to hear ICE legacy Customs agents talk about what a cozy relationship they had with the Customs Inspectors pre-DHS. Back then, they fought like cats and dogs over jurisdiction, but to hear them describe it now, it sounds like it was just one big lovefest at the ports and airports.

That's what cracks me up. Some of the Agents came from Inspections but a lot didn't. Before the "incident" our agents, largely, treated us like incompetent security guards (much like our management and the general public did). Now that they are talking about coming back to one agency they all act like we were all one happy family. The best thing they could do is separate the Immigration crap from us all together and let Immigration & passport control deal with all of it. I don't know that it would matter if ICE came under CBP, they would still act the same. Air & Marine Interdiction is now under CBP and soon will have offices on the Northern border (I believe Buffalo, Detroit, Blaine and Somewhere in ND) so we will have those agents with us. There was talk, by boner...I mean Bonner, that he wanted CBP to have our own 1811's to investigate....stuff. I'm not sure it would ever happen because I'm sure that ICE would have a **** fit if we had our own investigators. Of course this is from the same people that want us to work in Canada without any authority or weapons and also said they wanted to "resurrect" the Patrol Officer position! I would love the opportunity to do either but realistically I can't understand why we would want "Patrol Officers" when we have the Border Patrol as part of CBP and why we would want our own 1811's when ICE is all former Customs and INS agents basically still doing the same job? These things never make sense to me. I do like how they came up with the whole idea of DHS and how it is going to "streamline" all our agencies and "better our information sharing" yet information sharing is still a non-existent thing and no one in upper management actually lost their jobs so we still have all the managers in the chain of command and we have "legacy" agencies that still don't cooperate or get along (as a whole)? We still have more people above than below and, at least at some ports like mine, the BP and customs still fight over who should be doing what. It is all pretty much a cluster. They need to do some serious modifications to the system or just get rid of it and go back, either one but something needs to change.


On a side note, I am totally surprised that our new grooming and dress standards that came out "to raise morale" and "make us a world class law enforcement agency" and the soon-to-happen pay banding hasn't solved all our problems. :rolleyes:

[chewy]

Like any good Business, It's a hostile take-over. Get over it. It was a mistake to seperate ICE, from CBP, the two go hand & hand, ICE is a valueable assett and they, "CBP & ICE", complement each other nicely. Glad to have them back home where they belong!!!!!

Umm, ya. They sure work together well, as long as you make sure to stroke the agents egos and let them know they are the REAL Police!

Oh and as far as the business part you are totally correct, it is run very much like a Piss Poor business with no hope of making profit or succeeding :p

[Swat1]

ICE is a debacle. There are many many reasons why, but the biggest IMHO is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security and ICE being part of DHS is really one of the biggest farces perpetuated on the American people. The reality is we don't have ANY jurisdiction over terrorism or terrorism related cases. We contribute, but so do several other LE agencies who are not part of DHS.

The FBI is the sole investigative agency responsible for investigating acts of terrorism and charged with the responsibility of investigating terrorist organizations and conspiracies. The FBI fought hard to take away legacy Customs program areas and operations geared toward fighting terrorism.

I find it ironic and laughable that legacy Customs, under the Department of the Treasury had more jurisdiction over terrorism related cases than ICE does under Homeland Security. As legacy Customs we had a huge investigative program area and operation devoted to terrorism financing. During/shortly after the merger into ICE, the FBI saw a weak point and went for it to have the Attorney General's office strip terrorism financing away from ICE.

In the area of strategic export cases (illegal exports of military/munitions/hi-tech) the US Customs Service had a long standing program area and expertise in these types of investigations for decades. The FBI in another power grab, went for that as well. In any case where terrorism or foreign counterintelligence is involved the FBI gets the case. Well, the FBI has interpreted that to mean any case involving a foreigner. Well, guess what? They all involve foreigners that is the whole crux of these cases, their illegal EXPORTS to foreign countries.

So, we work the cases that our legacy agencies worked MINUS the terrorism related cases, MAKES SENSE HUH?

Personally, it doesn't affect me directly, I work child porn cases. But the fact that if you asked most Americans what the the largest investigative arm of DHS was responsible for, I would venture that 90% of them would be wrong. They would all answer something about terrorism. In typical government fashion, in a knee jerk reaction to 911 DHS and ICE were created to soothe the American mind and make it seem like something was being done.

Please don't get me wrong, it is not all for not, certainly some good things have occurred because of DHS which does directly affect the safety of our nation, but ICE isn't one of them.

Recently a Boy Scout leader was arrested in Dallas, TX by ICE for child pornography. It's a great case and is a great representation of what we in the child exploitation/cybercrimes programs do. However, some national media outlets questioned why DHS/ICE was out catching child pornographers instead of terrorists. It's a realistic question when the name of the department is such that it would lead any reasonable person to believe that protecting the homeland is what we do. Sure we protect the homeland, from drug smugglers, human traffickers, child pornographers, sex tourists, illegal exporters, customs fraud, and in hugely debatable area, illegal aliens (although the successes are outshadowed by the number of aliens running amuck).

What kills me is that our agency leadership, continues to perpetuate the myth that we are fighting terrorism, blah, blah, blah, instead of telling the real story of an agency and its agents who do some great things day in and day out. Sure, we have been out busting our humps and making cases and doing what we need to do. The fact is that those successes are testiments to the agents in the field kicking *** in spite of the agency, certainly not because of it.

Certainly our financial woes are a major concern and problem for us, but they seem to overshadow the root of the problem. Giving us all the money in the world does not fix the problems that plague ICE. It's an absolute embarrassment that we cannot pay the bills and our copiers have been repossessed, but it's more of an embarrassment to have the national media ridicule agents who are out trying to work legacy cases, but have to operate under the Homeland Security Umbrella.

Just this morning we executed a search warrant involving child pornography and when one of the subjects was handed a business card, which under the DHS branding guidelines must say Department of Homeland Security, and asked, "What the hell does Homeland Security have to do with this?" Once explained the perp poetically waxed, "Oh, I thought maybe you thought I was gonna blow something up or some **** like that."

As far as the relationship between Inspectors and Agents goes. The truth of the matter is that depending on the port/area, etc. the relationships were different. I know of agents who thought they were superior and I also know inspectors who went out of their way to make it as difficult as possible for us. It works both ways. At my office, we have a great relationship. The disembowlment hasn't changed that as far as the personal relationships and getting the job done, however, it certainly has had it's affects. I am familiar with cases where the FBI was called out by inspectors into the international area prior to ICE, where that would have NEVER happened under Customs. Information sharing has changed, but I cannot be specific on this public board.

I try to treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless and went out of my way to treat the inspectors well. I also didn't drink the coolaid with respect to the fact that just because the G gave me a piece of tin that says I am special, that it makes me better than anyone else.

Anyway,

just my .2

Swat1*

[K-9MALY]

Swat1,
First off, thanks for doing some of the really dirty work in LE. Child porn is disgusting, and I am glad we put assets into the fight against it.
As a legacy USCS guy, I completely understand the utter stupidity of creating ICE in the first place. Now we have two seperate factions of LE agencies trying to accomplish the original mission of keeping us safe. We have DHS with CBP and then we have ICE. Using old jock references, ICE is akin to the Varsity team and CBP is the J.V.
Why I say we are J.V. is because as a uniformed side of the equation, we are almost entirely a passive reactive force that waits for subjects or items to come to us. Now, ICE is the arm which has a proactive position and should be wielded with a much larger sweep in combating threats. Do we see that? Nope, the contrary happens with CBP getting the lions share of the money that is allocated from D.C. I know we are talking seperate budgets, but Homeland Defense is a money group set aside by Congress in the same manner that Military Budgets are. After a pre-determined amount is agreeded upon, the different branches or agencies scramble for it. It doesn't make sense for the officers who are sitting in choke points waiting for people or things to arrive have the most assets, while the offensive weapon in our supposed fight against terror is sidelined because they cannot gas their cars up or fix them when they break. I will be the first uniformed CBP officer to stand up to the plate and say "F*ck my next raise, if we can get ICE involved with that money!" I would like to have you guys making the arrests on people before they get to pull off their plans. If not, you will get to see all the CBP officers with their cool first responder training in action at our next terrorist strike site. Stay safe

[chewy]

Well said Swat1. I should have clarified in my remark that not all the agents are assess. We are kinda like the militarys, a lot of name calling and joking between but when it comes down to it we both have our jobs to do and usually work well together. We have agents here that are excellent and work with us real well. Then there are a few who wouldn't give the time of day. On the other side of the coin we have Officers that are just a' holes so it works out even. On the DHS remarks from what I hear I agree, ICE was raped when they were formed. The whole "stop terrorists" is kind of a farce anyway unless they are carrying a bomb or in the process of doing something at the moment. I have personally had about 7 known and 15-20 associates of known terrorists that I have had to spend four hours each with calling NTC, ICE, JTTF, FBI (yes, my supervisor makes me call the JTTF THEN call the local FBI duty agent??) our edd and ndd dogs etc. Then after several hours of phone calling and checking their truck we just let them go anyway. Out of the last 10 or so no agents even responded because the subjects had been interviewed at least once in the last 6months. Some of them we see once or twice a week. So basically our bosses always tell us to "go look for terrorists" but apparently being a known terrorist isn't really illegal as we always release them? It is frustrating to say the least. Anyway, I respect the agents immensly and would, I think, totally enjoy being one of them someday but that probably won't happen so... Hopefully they will get this whole mess straightened out someday, for our countries sake!

[Lost Texan]

I don't know if ICE will be back, I know there are a lot of people within CBP that don't want them back(an observation, not necessarily my preference). Ahern has wanted to form agents out of the old INS Senior position and there are policies that have mentioned using them in place of ICE. As far as Bonner goes, he is pretty good, especially if you remember Weise and Hallet, I kind of wish for Von Raab. You know put us all in BDUs and lets lose the welcome to walmart greetings. Don't forget, he is working under DHS and TD. I think our biggest problem is two- fold, at the 14/15 non-field level there are too many people who have little or no field experience running programs and they are in to everything; and the resurection of the phoenix in a big way. If that last phrase throws you don't worry, what is the saying "resistance is futile". Gotta laugh a little!

[Bearcat06]

I don't know if ICE will be back, I know there are a lot of people within CBP that don't want them back(an observation, not necessarily my preference). Ahern has wanted to form agents out of the old INS Senior position and there are policies that have mentioned using them in place of ICE. As far as Bonner goes, he is pretty good, especially if you remember Weise and Hallet, I kind of wish for Von Raab. You know put us all in BDUs and lets lose the welcome to walmart greetings. Don't forget, he is working under DHS and TD. I think our biggest problem is two- fold, at the 14/15 non-field level there are too many people who have little or no field experience running programs and they are in to everything; and the resurection of the phoenix in a big way. If that last phrase throws you don't worry, what is the saying "resistance is futile". Gotta laugh a little!

Lost Texan, if you do indeed work as a Federal LEO, please PM DC Law and get yourself verified....

[chewy]

I don't know if ICE will be back, I know there are a lot of people within CBP that don't want them back(an observation, not necessarily my preference). Ahern has wanted to form agents out of the old INS Senior position and there are policies that have mentioned using them in place of ICE. As far as Bonner goes, he is pretty good, especially if you remember Weise and Hallet, I kind of wish for Von Raab. You know put us all in BDUs and lets lose the welcome to walmart greetings. Don't forget, he is working under DHS and TD. I think our biggest problem is two- fold, at the 14/15 non-field level there are too many people who have little or no field experience running programs and they are in to everything; and the resurection of the phoenix in a big way. If that last phrase throws you don't worry, what is the saying "resistance is futile". Gotta laugh a little!

Well, were all in BDU's now...and some places can actually wear thigh holsters and tac lights now :eek: that is if you want to wear them. Of course the airports can't wear 'em doing PAX but all the land border can. I came into USCS in '98 so I never got to work for Von Raab but my wife was in during that time and a lot of the "old timers" talked about him. I agree, that is exactly what we need. Enough with the PC kiss their *** BS, we have a job, and a very important job especially in light of events, to do. Quit F'ing the political dog and just get to business. That's why I totally believe that the head of DHS should be a three or four year position, not selected by the president and not totally under his/her control. That way there would be much less political "do it my way or else" pressure AND the person would only have three or four years (with no option for a second term) to do what ever they could to make a name for themselves. I think, and maybe I'm wrong, that those circumstances would be more likely to get people to say "screw it, I'm only here three years and they can't fire me short of some major screw-up so I might as well 'go for the gold' ". Just my nickels worth