MOre 1811 questions

[txinvestigator1]

DO these agancies have 1811's, and if so are they armed positions?

DOD (other than CID/NIS), CIA, NSA, DIA, SEC, DHS, Education, Agricultral, NRC.

[Switchback]

I believe all 1811 jobs are armed.

I am not sure abou those agencies having 1811s. I would certainly not be surprised. Check usajobs for more info.... as well as the agency websites. I'll see what I can dig up.

[Bearcat06]

DO these agancies have 1811's, and if so are they armed positions?
DOD (other than CID/NIS), CIA, NSA, DIA, SEC, DHS, Education, Agricultral, NRC.

Tex, all of the 1811 positions that I have ever seen on usajobs are armed. I don't think the CIA or NSA have 1811 positions (If they do, then they are probably Inspector General postions) but the ones you listed do have them. They are all Inspector General positions. One of my academy instructors left a local PD to take a position with Education and was back to the PD in a year or so......not the kicking ***, taking names job they told him it would be.

[txinvestigator1]

I believe all 1811 jobs are armed.

I am not sure abou those agencies having 1811s. I would certainly not be surprised. Check usajobs for more info.... as well as the agency websites. I'll see what I can dig up.

Thanks. Texas recently added a list of "special Investigators" who could make felony arrests. This also allowed Texas to fix the fact that Feds were not "technically" allowed to carry handguns in Texas. :D

The list is below, and does not include those I am asking about.



(1) Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation;

(2) Special Agents of the Secret Service;

(3) Special Agents of the United States Customs Service;

(4) Special Agents of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms;

(5) Special Agents of Federal Drug Enforcement Agency;

(6) Inspectors of the United States Postal Service;

(7) Special Agents of the Criminal Investigation Division
and Inspectors of the Internal Security Division of the Internal
Revenue Service;

(8) Civilian Special Agents of the United States Naval
Investigative Service;

(9) Marshals and Deputy Marshals of the United States
Marshals Service;

(10) Special Agents of the United States Immigration and
Naturalization Service; and

(11) Special Agents of the United States Department of
State, Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

(b) A person designated as a special policeman by the Federal
Protective Services division of the General Services Administration
under 40 U.S.C. Section 318 or 318d is not a peace officer but has
the powers of arrest and search and seizure as to any offense under
the laws of this state.

(c) A customs inspector of the United States Customs Service
or a border patrolman or immigration officer of the United States
Department of Justice is not a peace officer under the laws of this
state but, on the premises of a port facility designated by the
commissioner of the United States Immigration and Naturalization
Service as a port of entry for arrival in the United States by land
transportation from the United Mexican States into the State of
Texas or at a permanent established border patrol traffic check point,
has the authority to detain a person pending transfer without
unnecessary delay to a peace officer if the inspector, patrolman, or
officer has probable cause to believe that the person has engaged in
conduct that is a violation of Section 49.02, 49.04, 49.07, or 49.08,
Penal Code, regardless of whether the violation may be disposed of in
a criminal proceeding or a juvenile justice proceeding.

(d) A commissioned law enforcement officer of the National
Park Service is not a peace officer under the laws of this state,
except that the officer has the powers of arrest, search, and seizure
as to any offense under the laws of this state committed within the
boundaries of a national park or national recreation area. In this
subsection, "national park or national recreation area" means a
national park or national recreation area included in the National
Park System as defined by 16 U.S.C. Section 1c(a).

(e) A Special Agent or Law Enforcement Officer of the
United States Forest Service is not a peace officer under the laws of
this state, except that the agent or officer has the powers of arrest,
search, and seizure as to any offense under the laws of this state
committed within the National Forest System. In this subsection,
"National Forest System" has the meaning assigned by 16 U.S.C.
Section 1609.

(f) Security personnel working at a commercial nuclear power
plant, including contract security personnel, trained and qualified
under a security plan approved by the United States Nuclear
Regulatory Commission, are not peace officers under the laws of this
state, except that such personnel have the powers of arrest, search,
and seizure, including the powers under Section 9.51, Penal Code,
while in the performance of their duties on the premises of a
commercial nuclear power plant site or under agreements entered into
with local law enforcement regarding areas surrounding the plant site.

[Kimble]

DO these agancies have 1811's, and if so are they armed positions?

DOD (other than CID/NIS), CIA, NSA, DIA, SEC, DHS, Education, Agricultral, NRC.

DOD- Yes, as within each branch of the Armed Service, there is a criminal investigative agency: AF Office of Special Investigation, Naval Criminal Investigative Service (serves USN and USMC) and Army CID. In addition, the DoD's Inspector Generals office has a criminal investigative division with 1811s, Defense Criminal Investigative Service.

CIA- I don't believe so. Even CIA's OIG doesn't have 1811's (as I've been told).

NSA- Again, I don't believe they have 1811's either (though I have heard to the contrary). Not sure with NSA as I've heard yes and no.

DHS- Under DHS are USSS, ICE (which has 1811's for ICE-OI and FPS), Coast Guard Investigative Service, and DHS's OIG.

Other OIG's for the USG departments (DoEd, DOE, DOT, USDA, DOJ, DHHS, DHUD, etc.) have 1811 positions as well. I could go on and on with all the agencies that have 1811 positions, but you'd likely tire long before I finished. Suffice to say that FBI, ATF, DEA, USSS and U.S. Marshals are not the only ones.

EDIT: As far as the agencies carrying, all of those listed above for DOD and DHS do. As for the IG's, I believe the amendment of the IG Act of the Homeland Security Act has granted many 1811s with OIG's the authority to carry 24/7 (as many OIG 1811s did not prior to 9/11).

Special Agents of the United States Department of
State, Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

Technically, SA's with DS are not 1811 but rather 2501, even though their job duties mirror those of an 1811 (especially SA's with USSS).

[txinvestigator1]

DOD- Yes, as within each branch of the Armed Service, there is a criminal investigative agency: AF Office of Special Investigation, Naval Criminal Investigative Service (serves USN and USMC) and Army CID. In addition, the DoD's Inspector Generals office has a criminal investigative division with 1811s, Defense Criminal Investigative Service.

CIA- I don't believe so. Even CIA's OIG doesn't have 1811's (as I've been told).

NSA- Again, I don't believe they have 1811's either (though I have heard to the contrary). Not sure with NSA as I've heard yes and no.

DHS- Under DHS are USSS, ICE (which has 1811's for ICE-OI and FPS), Coast Guard Investigative Service, and DHS's OIG.

Other OIG's for the USG departments (DoEd, DOE, DOT, USDA, DOJ, DHHS, DHUD, etc.) have 1811 positions as well. I could go on and on with all the agencies that have 1811 positions, but you'd likely tire long before I finished. Suffice to say that FBI, ATF, DEA, USSS and U.S. Marshals are not the only ones.

Technically, SA's with DS are not 1811 but rather 2501, even though their job duties mirror those of an 1811 (especially SA's with USSS).

Do you see anything on the Texas list that would seem to be a catch all?

[Kimble]

Do you see anything on the Texas list that would seem to be a catch all?

No, sure didn't.

[intheaircop2]

The Customs Service and Immigration service is no longer. They merged into one big agency called ICE or CBP. All the 1811's are under ICE( to include the Air Marshal service and FPS) and all the other inspectors are under CBP(to include Border Patrol)

[Nole795]

Thanks. Texas recently added a list of "special Investigators" who could make felony arrests. This also allowed Texas to fix the fact that Feds were not "technically" allowed to carry handguns in Texas. :D [/b]

TX, I may be wrong here but I don't think a state can ban a federal agent from carrying a firearm, we are covered under Federal statutes. I do wish I had peace officer status in TX though.

[txinvestigator1]

TX, I may be wrong here but I don't think a state can ban a federal agent from carrying a firearm, we are covered under Federal statutes. I do wish I had peace officer status in TX though.

Texas law has always had a blanket prohibition for carrying a handgun unless the person meets an exception. For the longest time there was no excpetion for Federal Officers.

It didn't matter, because no one, LEO or otherwise, made it an issue. The legislature finially fixed this a few years ago. It just came up to me that some Feds were still not included.

[Group9]

DO these agancies have 1811's, and if so are they armed positions?

DOD (other than CID/NIS),
CIA,
NSA - Yes, had a friend who was one.
DIA
SEC - Aren't these the guys who got Martha Stewart?
DHS (Department of Homeland Security? Yes, they have a few.) :D
Education
Agricultral - Yes, work Food stamp fraud, and some other stuff.
NRC.

And, I have never heard of 1811's were were not armed (except maybe senior management out of stupidity).

[Group9]

TX, I may be wrong here but I don't think a state can ban a federal agent from carrying a firearm, we are covered under Federal statutes. I do wish I had peace officer status in TX though.

I think the only reason that states put those types of statutes into law are for the officers that didn't pay attention very well in their civics and government classes.

It sounds hard to believe, but we have actually had a few agents arrested by locals for carrying weapons,while on duty, and while driving government cars. We had one, in a small town I won't embarass by naming, that carried one of our agents in, for carrying his service weapon, even after talking to the agent's supervisor on the phone. They had never heard of my agency, and decided to take the agent in "to get to the bottom of this".

And, we are not a brand X agency, either. :D

I actually had a state trooper tell me that I couldn't carry a weapon out of the state I was assigned to, so I won't say it is a total waste of paper to pass a law like that.

[Ranger__101]

Texas law has always had a blanket prohibition for carrying a handgun unless the person meets an exception. For the longest time there was no excpetion for Federal Officers.

It didn't matter, because no one, LEO or otherwise, made it an issue. The legislature finially fixed this a few years ago. It just came up to me that some Feds were still not included.

It would not matter what Texas law said about carrying weapons. US laws override any state or local laws regarding weapons.

The only thing that law does is to allow officers listed to have state arrest authority for felony crimes in Texas. That just saves the AUSA from having to prosecute these crimes when we can just arrest and turn them over to the Local PD for the process.

It doesn't change much because most felonies at state level also have a federal law that mirrors the state law and we could have always arrested under a violation of federal law.

[txinvestigator1]

It would not matter what Texas law said about carrying weapons. US laws override any state or local laws regarding weapons.

The only thing that law does is to allow officers listed to have state arrest authority for felony crimes in Texas. That just saves the AUSA from having to prosecute these crimes when we can just arrest and turn them over to the Local PD for the process.

It doesn't change much because most felonies at state level also have a federal law that mirrors the state law and we could have always arrested under a violation of federal law.

Can you show me the federal law that says Federal Law overrides Federal Law regarding weapons? I don't believe thats true.

And while the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure does give those agencies state law arrest powers, it also allows them to legislatively (read legally) carry a handgun in Texas.

Below is the state law prohibiting the carrying of handguns in Texas. It is very short and specific.


Text
§46.02. Unlawful carrying weapons.

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun,
illegal knife, or club.

Also 46.03 list places where NO firearm can be carried.

Texas has a list of person who 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply.

However, before I post that, lets consider something else. Many States prohibit NFA items, even though Federal Law specifically allows them if certain requirements are met. If Federal Law overrides State Law, then that would not be possible.

No Federal Law prohibits citizens from carrying handguns; however, Texas Law clearly does.

OK, Texas law does have a section whch makes 46.02 not apply to certain persons:



§46.15. Nonapplicability.

(a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers, including commissioned peace officers of a recognized state, or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon



Please don't think I ever believed it was a problem for Feds to carry in Texas. It is just interesting that several years ago, the non-applicability listed Peace Officers, and Federal Agents did not fit that definition.

I am simply curious as to the leaving out of many other Federal Investihgators from the Texas Law.

[Group9]

I've worked in states where we had state arrest powers and states where we didn't and I didn't see any practical difference. Most serious crimes have a federal counterpart so it doesn't matter.

Federal law does trump state law when the state law attempts to regulate the activities of the federal government. Just go back and read McCullough v. Maryland, decided in 1819, the second case ever decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Although this case dealt with the power of Congress to incorporate a bank, it is the first in a long chain of cases definging the power of the federal government and how it relates to state powers.

It stands for the doctrine that the Government of the Union, though limited in its powers, is supreme within its sphere of action, and its laws, when made in pursuance of the Constitution, form the supreme law of the land.

If the federal end be legitimate, and within the scope of the U.S. Constitution, all the means which are appropriate and which are plainly adapted to that end, and which are not prohibited by the Constitution, may constitutionally be employed to carry it into effect. The granting of authority by Congress to federal agents to carry firearms is a function of that power.

The States have no power, by taxation (which was the main issue in McCollough) or otherwise , to retard, impede, burden, or in any manner control the operations of the constitutional laws enacted by Congress to carry into effect the powers vested in the national Government.

Broadly, the case stands for the doctrine that the government of the United States, then, though limited in its powers, is supreme, and its laws, when made in pursuance of the Constitution, form the supreme law of the land, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

So, when it comes to the carrying of weapons in Texas, by those authorized by the federal government to do so, the Texas statutes have no effect, although, they might come in handy for Texas officers who were sleeping that day in the academy.