ATF out of date?

[LEOWannabe]

I know i'm going to get a lot of people mad with this post, especially since it is only my second post, but what do you guys think about the ATF? It seems to me that the ATF is kind of out of date. Is illegal alcohol and tobacco really a big enough probelm to justify having its own law enforcement agency? They just recently got moved to DOJ and lost their power to collect money. Obviously during prohibition they were necessary but today, with corporations like phillip morris and budweiser, its impossible to bootleg tobacco or alcohol on a large scale. I know alcohol and tobacco aren't the only things they investigate, but the fbi could absorb their responsibilites of arson, firearms, explosives, etc. Narcartics are a big enough problem to justify the DEA, but are alcohol/tobacco a big enough probelm to justify the ATF? Sorry about the length of this post.

P.S.- Please dont take this as an insult against ATF agents. They are some of the best in the country and as you can tell by my screen name, my goal is to one day be like them. Once again, i'm not trying to insult ATF agents.

[Kimble]

I know i'm going to get a lot of people mad with this post, especially since it is only my second post, but what do you guys think about the ATF? It seems to me that the ATF is kind of out of date. Is illegal alcohol and tobacco really a big enough probelm to justify having its own law enforcement agency? They just recently got moved to DOJ and lost their power to collect money. Obviously during prohibition they were necessary but today, with corporations like phillip morris and budweiser, its impossible to bootleg tobacco or alcohol on a large scale. I know alcohol and tobacco aren't the only things they investigate, but the fbi could absorb their responsibilites of arson, firearms, explosives, etc. Narcartics are a big enough problem to justify the DEA, but are alcohol/tobacco a big enough probelm to justify the ATF? Sorry about the length of this post.

P.S.- Please dont take this as an insult against ATF agents. They are some of the best in the country and as you can tell by my screen name, my goal is to one day be like them. Once again, i'm not trying to insult ATF agents.

You state that you know that the post is going to offend some, and yet you still post it... nice move, buddy. I'm sure you'll make friends real quick around here :rolleyes: .

Sure the FBI could absorb their responsibilities for firearms and explosives (and in the past they've tried), but why? Why add another responsibility to an already huge agency? Why not keep firearms and explosives investigations to an agency that specializes in them. Crimes resulting from firearms and explosives are very serious, as they're often among the most violent. Why give this responsibility to an agency that already is tasked with terrorism, counter-intel, white collar crime, public corruption, etc., which may in turn put such cases on the back burner to deal with other cases in public view (ex: terrorism). I say keep firearms and explosives investigations with the ATF, as they're a proven and efficient agency at dealing with such cases. If you think ATF is out-dated, then I'd suggest that you really haven't done any research about the agency and the cases they are taking on today. Remember, you should always think before you speak, especially when there are ATF agents on this forum who may not take too kindly to you saying their agency and mission are "out of date."

[txinvestigator1]

I know i'm going to get a lot of people mad with this post, especially since it is only my second post, but what do you guys think about the ATF? It seems to me that the ATF is kind of out of date. Is illegal alcohol and tobacco really a big enough probelm to justify having its own law enforcement agency? They just recently got moved to DOJ and lost their power to collect money. Obviously during prohibition they were necessary but today, with corporations like phillip morris and budweiser, its impossible to bootleg tobacco or alcohol on a large scale. I know alcohol and tobacco aren't the only things they investigate, but the fbi could absorb their responsibilites of arson, firearms, explosives, etc. Narcartics are a big enough problem to justify the DEA, but are alcohol/tobacco a big enough probelm to justify the ATF? Sorry about the length of this post.

P.S.- Please dont take this as an insult against ATF agents. They are some of the best in the country and as you can tell by my screen name, my goal is to one day be like them. Once again, i'm not trying to insult ATF agents.

The FBI, while still maintaining its Federal investigative position, is more focused on anti-terrorism.

You also don't seem to understand the scope of illegal alcohol and tobacco operations. Besides, the firearms and explosives enforcement alone justifies the agency.

[LEOWannabe]

You also don't seem to understand the scope of illegal alcohol and tobacco operations. Besides, the firearms and explosives enforcement alone justifies the agency.

Thanks, thats what i wanted. I'm not trying to start and argument or offend anybody. I'm 19 and am not trying to pretend like i know everything. Maybe i should have reworded what i wrote, i just want to know what the need for the ATF is. What is probably most confusing about the ATF is seems like they dont have a distinct jurisdiction like the DEA, US Marshals, etc. If i'm wrong, please correct me, but it seems like they dont have a job that is specifically theirs. Firearms/Explosives is a very broad field. If they are used in bank robbery, terrorism, etc. then the FBI investigates. If they are used in a drug ring, then the DEA investigates. What i'm trying to ask is, in what case would jurisdiction fall specifically to the ATF?

[LEOWannabe]

You state that you know that the post is going to offend some, and yet you still post it... nice move, buddy. I'm sure you'll make friends real quick around here :rolleyes: .

So if the question is unpopular, then i shouldnt ask it?

[Johninaustin]

So if the question is unpopular, then i shouldnt ask it?

No, but you should research it. You make a lot of assumptions about the ATF and it's mission that are off base.

[Valor55]

Everytime we get a gun off of some thug it is the ATF who does all the tracing on it. I get a felon with a gun I can charge him but if I call the ATF and let them charge them I guarantee a stiffer sentence. We call up ATF agents in the middle of the night for help when we get guns off felons or on a search warrant in a crack house. They may even help us kick the door in on that crack house search warrant. The ATF has federal laws at its disposal in the arena of possessing guns and drugs that I don't have access to. The ATF is an invaluable aid to local law enforcement. If the FBI "gobbled" them up I can guarantee the "customer service" would suck and we'd just handle everything on the local level because we can't get anyone to help since they are driving around storage businesses sniffing for nukes. :rolleyes: The FBI is waaaay too busy with anti-terror/counter-intel to help us charge crack heads carrying a .38.

The ATF has cleaned up their image from the 80's and are now a very professional, high-speed, low drag freight train that I am more than happy to have help me.

[LEOWannabe]

Everytime we get a gun off of some thug it is the ATF who does all the tracing on it. I get a felon with a gun I can charge him but if I call the ATF and let them charge them I guarantee a stiffer sentence. We call up ATF agents in the middle of the night for help when we get guns off felons or on a search warrant in a crack house. They may even help us kick the door in on that crack house search warrant. The ATF has federal laws at its disposal in the arena of possessing guns and drugs that I don't have access to. The ATF is an invaluable aid to local law enforcement. If the FBI "gobbled" them up I can guarantee the "customer service" would suck and we'd just handle everything on the local level because we can't get anyone to help since they are driving around storage businesses sniffing for nukes. :rolleyes: The FBI is waaaay too busy with anti-terror/counter-intel to help us charge crack heads carrying a .38.

The ATF has cleaned up their image from the 80's and are now a very professional, high-speed, low drag freight train that I am more than happy to have help me.

One of the more informative post yet. Helps to clear some things up. One more question, it seems that firearms and explosives have almost nothing in common with alcohol/tobacco. How exactly did they get grouped into one agency?

P.S.- I never had any probelms with the ATF's image. I read an earlier post where someone basically trashed the ATF and i dont want anyone to think that is what i'm trying to do. Just had some questions. As for johninaustin, if i had some misconceptions, please explain.

[JBT]

First off I will say this, as an ATF Agent, I am not offended by your comments. I would say this though, do some more research. Especially, if you are looking into federal LE. I know I am biased, but ATF is one of the best agencies to work for. We have freedom in our investigative focus, you can work arson, explosives, firearms trafficking, run with local dope crews, work on the JTTF, tobacco/alcohol diversion, and know that the agency is running Violent Crime Task Forces in at least 15 cities. So as you can seen there is more to do than ivestigate illegal alcohol and tobacco.

One question: Do you know what one of the major channels of illegal funds to terrorist organizations is? It is money generated through the diversion of tobacco products. Diversion meaning buying in a low or no tax state (ie: Virginia or North Carolina), and then selling them illegally in high tax states (ie: New York or Michigan). This illegal activity generates millions of dollars that is then sent to the Middle East.

In the past, when the agency was started, yeah the alcohol laws were the focus. But as the times have changed, so has the agency. We are one of the leading agencies in investigation and research of arson and explosives. Our labs are some of the best in the world when it comes to firearms, explosives, and arson. Our agents train LE agencies from around the world in a number of topics: from the aforementioned arson, explosives, and firearms, as well as interviewing and interrogation.

We Special Respone Teams and National Response Teams (NRT). The NRT responds to significant fire/arson and explosive incidents to assist the local and state authorities with the investigation of these incidents. We are also one of the leading agencies in the investigation of violent crime in relation to firearms, explosives, and arson.

Oh, by the way, can the FBI just gobble up our responsibilities. In a word, NO! Just recently the FBI tried to steal away our arson and explosive training responsibilites. Guess what happened, they did not succeed. The AG and I believe members of Congress, said those responsibilites are in the right hands. It would be a sad day, if we were swallowed up by them.

But the biggest thing we do is work with and support the local, county, state, and other federal LE. This is something you can ask many local LEOs and they will tell you that ATF is an agency that sees the big picture, not just how many arrests they can get. One Mission, One Goal!!!

Well this is getting too long and I apologize to those reading this post, but I have a responsibility to respond.

I will say this, do your research and then ask the questions. If you are curious about all ATF does, go to the ATF.gov website.


Aaron

[JBT]

Thanks Valor, you said alot of what I was trying to get across.

[LEOWannabe]

Thanks JBT. I was hoping an ATF agent would get on here. I'm from the DC area and the ATF is investigating a serial arsonest in the area, so i appreciate what you guys do. First of all, i think about five people have told me to do some research, but the ATF website, which i have visited, only provides so much. (They still say they're mission is being revised since their move to DOJ which happened in 2003) I like this website because you can talk to people that actually do the job. That is much better than reading anything off any website. One more question, I heard some rumors a few years back that the ATF was considering droping the Alcohol/Tobacco part and focusing exclusively on firearms, arson, and explosives. Now that may have just been some BS rumor, but what would you think about that? By the way, i didnt know about terrorist using proceeds from tobacco. One more question, what kind of stuff do you guys actually investigate in terms of alcohol/tobacco? I've read what they say on the website, but if you could give real life examples, that would clear stuff up.

[Valor55]

JBT,

I'll bet the ATF had a large hand in the Unibomber investigation as well as Eric Rudolf's bombings (including Olympic Park when the FBI tried to pin it on the security guard). High profile stuff that you don't get any credit for.

[LEOWannabe]

Alright its probably time to close this thread. Seems like some people are getting kinda upset. Anyway, thanks for your help, Valor55 and JBT. Your post helped a lot.

[Group9]

I don't think anyone is upset. I don't see how you could have got much better service than you received here.

[Kimble]

So if the question is unpopular, then i shouldnt ask it?

No, I'm not saying that. However, you opened your post with "I know i'm going to get a lot of people mad with this post, especially since it is only my second post...". If your uninformed about a topic, be respectful if asking those in the know, but just ask. If you think your question may offend, then take the extra time and effort to construct your question in a way that it's not offensive. I don't think anyone was offended by your post, but you do not seem to have a clear understanding of the duties and mission of ATF, rather, you seem to have an idea based on what you see in the popular media. There's nothing wrong, in and of itself, by asking unpopular questions, just be aware that there's a right and wrong way to ask, and if you think something you're asking will offend, state it in a respectful way that you don't do so. Just my two pennies.



P.S. Do some research on what ATF does today (atf.gov is a good start), how they interact with other federal and local/state agencies, and I'm pretty sure you'll be assured that the agency and its mission are very much needed and utilized today.