ATF out of date?

[LEOWannabe]

Just wondering, are there any verified FBI agents on this board?

[Ranger__101]

What are you trying to say in your last sentence?

That as lead agency the FBI manages the over all invesigation. They may or may not be doing any actually investigations depending on the event.

[chewy]

Not that I work for the BATFE or anything but I would say that even though alcohol is legal there is still a large amount of smuggling of alcohol and tobacco into this country. I have seized a couple large shipments of it since I've been here. The main issue isn't that it's legal/illegal but the taxes. Internal Revenue tax on a 1ltr 80proof bottle of liquer is almost $4 a bottle. When you're importing several hundreds of bottles this starts to add up quick. Then on the tobacco people smuggle it to avoid the state tax stamp laws. We still collect a lot of revenue on these two products and also seize a lot of it (not counting the gazzilion personal use bottles) commercially for attempt to avoid duties. The BATFE definatly has more important duties but like us all they also are needed to enforce some of these more outdated laws (although both products provide a lot of revenue because of the laws). Keep up the good work.


By the way:
The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau collected $15.1 billion in 2002 and $14.7 billion in 2003 for those two products. (and that was legal alcohol/tobacco, imaging how much people could make by smuggling and not paying into that)

[LEOWannabe]

Not that I work for the BATFE or anything but I would say that even though alcohol is legal there is still a large amount of smuggling of alcohol and tobacco into this country. I have seized a couple large shipments of it since I've been here. The main issue isn't that it's legal/illegal but the taxes. Internal Revenue tax on a 1ltr 80proof bottle of liquer is almost $4 a bottle. When you're importing several hundreds of bottles this starts to add up quick. Then on the tobacco people smuggle it to avoid the state tax stamp laws. We still collect a lot of revenue on these two products and also seize a lot of it (not counting the gazzilion personal use bottles) commercially for attempt to avoid duties. The BATFE definatly has more important duties but like us all they also are needed to enforce some of these more outdated laws (although both products provide a lot of revenue because of the laws). Keep up the good work.


By the way:
The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau collected $15.1 billion in 2002 and $14.7 billion in 2003 for those two products. (and that was legal alcohol/tobacco, imaging how much people could make by smuggling and not paying into that)

But as of 2003, the ATF was moved from the treasury department to the department of justice. As far as I am aware of, they no longer investigate tax related crimes. That now falls under the jurisdiction of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB).

[chewy]

But as of 2003, the ATF was moved from the treasury department to the department of justice. As far as I am aware of, they no longer investigate tax related crimes. That now falls under the jurisdiction of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB).

Ya, well. Customs went under Homeland Security and we still collect Treasury taxes just like we did under Treasury. Moving doesn't always change anything...in fact we went to DHS and absolutly nothing changed about how we do our job or what we do except we don't have ANY money anymore for supplies or operations.

[Kimble]

Ya, well. Customs went under Homeland Security and we still collect Treasury taxes just like we did under Treasury. Moving doesn't always change anything...in fact we went to DHS and absolutly nothing changed about how we do our job or what we do except we don't have ANY money anymore for supplies or operations.

Yep, just look at U.S. Secret Service. While they are now under DHS rather than Dept. of Treas., their mission and duties are unchanged. The only real difference are minor cosmetic changes like fact that their letter head now has "Dept. of Homeland Security" at the top. USSS still conducts investigations for currency counterfeiting, which of course is still a means of treasury enforcement.

[chewy]

Yep, just look at U.S. Secret Service. While they are now under DHS rather than Dept. of Treas., their mission and duties are unchanged. The only real difference are minor cosmetic changes like fact that their letter head now has "Dept. of Homeland Security" at the top. USSS still conducts investigations for currency counterfeiting, which of course is still a means of treasury enforcement.

I was kind of excited when we were told we were going to DHS because it sounded cool and I thought "Great, finally we're just going to focus on Drugs/terrorism and maybe get to do our job"...boy was I wrong. Now it looks like some of our agencies might get released from DHS back to their original agencies.

[Ranger__101]

It's really too bad that the concept of information sharing and being able to have all these different agencies just can't work in our current form of government.

Now as a few of you are forthing at the mouth I'll take a few moments and then explain myself

Our current burocrasy is all about ME. Each department head want total control over their agency and credit for anything they can get. They don't want to share information because of the idea "That's mine and if I keep it, I know I have a 1 up against you".

The way "I" see the probems is that each of theses agencies has their own specific assignment and rolls and required information detailed to a specific cause and formated in a certain way.

I just never though they'd see any cost savings by trying to put everyone under one umbrella and say OK. We can now cut these jobs, since there duplicate but in reality there not because each group needed to have that many employees.

In a perfect world each of these agencies could have used some form of Electronic Case Files system so they could all put their stuff in a data base and any other user could search and pull stuff out that would help them.

But... As you see the FBI tried the case files system and this attempt was so badly written and managed that millions of dollars went down the drain and now they want to try again, but at least this time the'll be some massive oversite.

[cntryboy0531]

When the Capitol building was bombed in the 80's by the communist terror group I had a friend who was a detective on the case. He was with the Capitol PD. They called and asked FBI for help but they refused. After a lot of surveillance and hard work warrants were issued and they were about to go in for the arrest. Several large black FBI vans with lights and sirens slowly circled the block and spooked the terrorists who disappeared. They intentionally botched the arrest and a couple months later picked up the terrorists in NY and took all the credit for the whole thing. My buddy's boss had a heart attack and died screaming on the phone at the DC SAIC. My buddy was so disgusted he left LE until we were in the academy together where he told me the story.

DAMN. I don't blame him for leaving. If I was in his position, I would have left to. I really never believed one agency would intentionally botch anothers arrest/investigation for the sole reason of publicity. If the bosses want to fight for the publicity after the arrests and stuff are made, great. But Jesus H. Christ, doing something like that?? Thats insane!!!!

[LEOWannabe]

Ya, well. Customs went under Homeland Security and we still collect Treasury taxes just like we did under Treasury. Moving doesn't always change anything...in fact we went to DHS and absolutly nothing changed about how we do our job or what we do except we don't have ANY money anymore for supplies or operations.

Maybe so, but unless I misread, the ATF website pretty clearly states that they no longer investigate tax issues in regard to alcohol/tobacco, or firearms for that matter. See below link.
ATF

[LEOWannabe]

It's really too bad that the concept of information sharing and being able to have all these different agencies just can't work in our current form of government.

Now as a few of you are forthing at the mouth I'll take a few moments and then explain myself

Our current burocrasy is all about ME. Each department head want total control over their agency and credit for anything they can get. They don't want to share information because of the idea "That's mine and if I keep it, I know I have a 1 up against you".

The way "I" see the probems is that each of theses agencies has their own specific assignment and rolls and required information detailed to a specific cause and formated in a certain way.

I just never though they'd see any cost savings by trying to put everyone under one umbrella and say OK. We can now cut these jobs, since there duplicate but in reality there not because each group needed to have that many employees.

In a perfect world each of these agencies could have used some form of Electronic Case Files system so they could all put their stuff in a data base and any other user could search and pull stuff out that would help them.

But... As you see the FBI tried the case files system and this attempt was so badly written and managed that millions of dollars went down the drain and now they want to try again, but at least this time the'll be some massive oversite.

Solution?

[JBT]

Maybe so, but unless I misread, the ATF website pretty clearly states that they no longer investigate tax issues in regard to alcohol/tobacco, or firearms for that matter. See below link.
ATF

The whole issue of alcohol/tobacco diversion is a tax issue. From the aspect of tax collection (revenue) in regards to A/T, yes that was differed to TTB when the split happened. But ATF still investigates the diversion aspect, as I mentioned before, diversion being making, selling, or trafficking in A/T to avoid paying a tax. So, legal tax revenue-TTB, investigation of illegal actions to avoid paying said tax-ATF.

I hope this clears things up.

[Ranger__101]

Solution?

The only way to fix the system is for the Executive Branch of Government to really lean hard on the department heads to play nice and insure that things happen that need to.

[LEOWannabe]

The whole issue of alcohol/tobacco diversion is a tax issue. From the aspect of tax collection (revenue) in regards to A/T, yes that was differed to TTB when the split happened. But ATF still investigates the diversion aspect, as I mentioned before, diversion being making, selling, or trafficking in A/T to avoid paying a tax. So, legal tax revenue-TTB, investigation of illegal actions to avoid paying said tax-ATF.

I hope this clears things up.

It does