Cancelling ambulance and or fire.

[akehl]

It depends on your local SOPs as determined by a MOU between Police/Fire-EMS and sometimes Medical Direction. In some areas it is procedure that Police and Fire/EMS have different commands and as such operate autonomously. Meaning even if Police advise that the patients have left the scene until Fire Command cancels the ambulance is still coming (This is only the case if your Fire/EMS system is under one command and your area doesn’t run a third service independent EMS agency). In our area the SOP is that we get on scene unless fire cancels us. Even if police advise otherwise we listen to fire. Police can request that Fire tell us to down grade but we will almost always still show up. Hey look at it on the bright-side at least your not liable if someone sues after the accident for medical malpractice b/c you don’t have command over fire or the ambulance. If your system is like most, change will only happen once that fire or EMS rig gets into an accident.

[MDEMT280]

Consider this, too, for what it's worth.

I really don't get off on driving a big ol' beastly pig of a beat up ambulance lights and sirens through congested traffic, not even on a good day. When it's dark and rainy or snowy and rush hour has things super jammed up, I absolutely despise it.

I'll really be unhappy if I run hot just to get there and find out that the patient doesn't want me there. There are usually three questions I ask everyone involved: "Are you hurt?" "Do you need an ambulance?" "Do you want to go to the hospital?" If there are no visible injuries and the answer to all three questions is "no," I'm going home because there is nobody on scene who requires medical attention. Same holds true for the good intent calls where the "unconscious" subject was actually napping while waiting at the bus stop. (Really, if a patient is conscious, alert and oriented to person, place, time and event, even if they are injured, I can't treat them if they don't want me to. I cannot even touch them. That means that I have no means of assessing them for internal injuries anyway.)

I'll be super unhappy if I'm on my way to one of these calls, and I am involved in a traffic collision. I'll be really uber super mega unhappy if I'm involved in a traffic collision after someone on scene tried to cancel me, and nobody passed that on to me.

[maz]

In our County if the Police Officer on scene says to cancel EMS we HAVE to relay the request, but we have to re word it as a request and not a command. If the officer says, County, cancel EMS. We then call either the rig or a line officer responding and tell them the officer on scene is requesting you to cancel due to no injuries, your pleasure? Sometimes the Squad Captain will say cancel my units, in that case we will re-tone the EMS agency and say per the squad captain cancel. If they say have my units standby I will proceed in, we re-tone it and state that. I don't a hundred percent agree to it but for whatever reason fire dept doesn't get along with the EMS agencies and they both dont get along with the PD so we as the dispatchers get BS policies and political BS thrown at us and we're stuck in the middle, but anyway thats how we do it

[Drummadude]

Well whenever there is a report of fire, I see my FD rolling out everything they have at the station closest to the location of the fire. A few months ago, I heard and saw a huge convoy of a ladder, engine, and a few special unit trucks coming into my neighborhood. I watched, and saw that they all left within two minutes. They take no chances.

[Stan Switek]

I'm a dispatcher, not a police officer, EMS, or firefighter. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes there are internal injuries that cannot be detected by just looking at someone. Does a police officer take the blood pressure of a patient or the pulse before saying no injuries? The point I was trying to make is that EMS should show up and if the patient does not want to go to the hospital than in our county they sign a Refused Medical Attention form. This takes liability off of everyone, takes it off the EMS and Police.

And we don't have Hand Me Down firetrucks or anything in our county. I said we were rural, not poor. Our Firehouses and EMS buildings are loaded with brand new useless equipment, the only reason why they have it is because they have the money, not because they need it

If a person tells me they are uninjured, doesn't want EMS, and I see nothing leading to an indication they are injured, I am going to cancel EMS so they are available for someone who really needs them. I'm not going to have them roll out just to have someone sign a form. That is the kind of thought process that makes cops & EMS nuts. Without putting on a first aid class here, most first responders can tell if EMS is needed. Let the people at the scene do their job without second guessing them!

[Wombat311]

Here, we can cancel the ambulance if they are not required. No problems there.

The Firies though, once they start rolling, you can not stop them. They ahve their own policy that once they get a cal, they go, regardless. Nobody can cancel them.

[Valor55]

We cancel all the time. And it works. If we get onscene and nobody is injured we'll call off EMS. There's no point if everyone onscene is refusing rescue.

[MrJim911]

Our officers can give us additional info, but they cannot have fire/EMS cancel. For those of you that can and do cancel fire/ems responses your in the shrinking minority. It's simply a bad idea and has huge liability isuses. Let EMS come and determine if a transport is not needed or needed. Around here the medics have to get a release or refusal signed by the "patient" regardless, they can't just turn around and go home once they are requested. This would be akin to a fire response turning around just because the alarm company that called in the fire alarm called back to cancel because they got a reset. A reset does not mean that there is not a fire....

[sbrad]

Our officers can give us additional info, but they cannot have fire/EMS cancel. For those of you that can and do cancel fire/ems responses your in the shrinking minority.

Don't think so.

It's simply a bad idea and has huge liability isuses.

Another dispatcher/lawyer. Awsome. FWIW I think you're 100% wrong.

[MDEMT280]

Here's a fun scenario: The gong goes off... Engine Company One, Ambulance One respond for the MVC with auto fire.

As fire/EMS is rolling down the road, police are on scene advising: No accident, it was an overheated car, cancel fire and EMS.

We don't cancel, and a 20 ton fire engine running lights and sirens to an overheated car (because PD can't cancel fire or EMS) slams into a minivan full of kids.

What's the liability issue look like on that one?

People need to finally realize that the daily activities of the world cannot be governed entirely by the quest to find the best way to save our rears from liability. Bad stuff can happen under any circumstances, and when it does, you deal with it.

[MrJim911]

Don't think so.

Another dispatcher/lawyer. Awsome. FWIW I think you're 100% wrong.

There's a difference between thinking something and knowing something. I know because I've researched it enough to know the better way to do things. I am a Telecommunicaor, but not a lawyer, but it was a nice attempt at a slam.

Here's a fun scenario: The gong goes off... Engine Company One, Ambulance One respond for the MVC with auto fire.

As fire/EMS is rolling down the road, police are on scene advising: No accident, it was an overheated car, cancel fire and EMS.

We don't cancel, and a 20 ton fire engine running lights and sirens to an overheated car (because PD can't cancel fire or EMS) slams into a minivan full of kids.

What's the liability issue look like on that one?

People need to finally realize that the daily activities of the world cannot be governed entirely by the quest to find the best way to save our rears from liability. Bad stuff can happen under any circumstances, and when it does, you deal with it.

The liability with that lies in the policy in responding to calls lights and sirens. It has nothing to do with police cancelling calls or dispatch. They should downgrade the response to code 4 (no lights, no sirens) until they get on scene.

And I agree that all daily activities cannot be governed by the threat of liability, but it exists none-the-less and can be avoided by having SOP's that make sense like not allowing non medical personell cancel an ambulance because the person "looks ok" or says they "feel fine". And not allowing 20 ton fire trucks respond code to a car sitting in the middle of the road not on fire.

[MDEMT280]

They should downgrade the response to code 4 (no lights, no sirens) until they get on scene.

Forgive me, but that's rediculous. The fire department is the FIRE department, not the fire and mechanic department. I'm not a mechanic, nor is a police officer. The cop is just as qualified as a firefighter to say, "yep, no car fire, just a mechanical problem." We can't do anything more for a flat tire or an overheated car. Call a tow truck.

And not allowing 20 ton fire trucks respond code to a car sitting in the middle of the road not on fire.

But remember, we can't trust the cops on scene. As we've established, we can't trust what they say regarding a medical call, since they're not paramedics. Obviously, we can't trust them to say the car's not on fire, since they're not firefighters. I mean, that must be true, since we have to continue our response, right? But then, I guess we trust them a little bit, since we can respond non-emergency?

It seems like the issue here is that every emergency responder (fire, EMS, PD or communications) must think that every other responder is a blooming IDIOT and we can't trust ANYONE. Let's just put a cop, a firefighter, a paramedic, and a dispatcher in a car together, so any potential response can have everything that would ever be needed.

Now I've about hit my nonsense threshhold with this thread, so I'm bowing out. G'night folks.

[Stan Switek]

Our officers can give us additional info, but they cannot have fire/EMS cancel. For those of you that can and do cancel fire/ems responses your in the shrinking minority. It's simply a bad idea and has huge liability isuses. Let EMS come and determine if a transport is not needed or needed. Around here the medics have to get a release or refusal signed by the "patient" regardless, they can't just turn around and go home once they are requested. This would be akin to a fire response turning around just because the alarm company that called in the fire alarm called back to cancel because they got a reset. A reset does not mean that there is not a fire....

Pfffffffffffffft......... Give me a freaking break. I can'd EMS when not needed for 30 years without a problem. Most cops are smart enough to tell when someone needs EMS & when someone doesnt. The last thing I'm going to do is have EMS rolling code 3 when not needed. Your know it all attitude just doesnt cut it with me. You sit there in your "telecommunication center" looking at your computer screens & you think you know more than the first responder on the scene who has the complete picture. You don't. You never will.

[sbrad]

There's a difference between thinking something and knowing something. I know because I've researched it enough to know the better way to do things.

Ok. I'm willing to say you're right if you show me a single lawsuit that has been the result of a police officer cancelling EMS. I shouldn't have to wait long since you've researched it so much.

I am a Telecommunicaor, but not a lawyer, but it was a nice attempt at a slam.

Thanks for correcting me. I have no idea why I accidentially called you a dispatcher since you clearly telecommunicate all day.
Hell, if you're like most "telecommunicators" I know the appropriate title would actually be "LeaveMeTheHellAloneI'mEating-anier".

[MrJim911]

Pfffffffffffffft......... Give me a freaking break. I can'd EMS when not needed for 30 years without a problem. Most cops are smart enough to tell when someone needs EMS & when someone doesnt. The last thing I'm going to do is have EMS rolling code 3 when not needed. Your know it all attitude just doesnt cut it with me. You sit there in your "telecommunication center" looking at your computer screens & you think you know more than the first responder on the scene who has the complete picture. You don't. You never will.

I like how you assume so much with knowing so little about me, suffice to say your wrong. I also like how some of the officers here automatically go into 'bash the dispatcher' mode when they have one disagaree with them or, God forbid, state their own opinion which is based on how things work in their area. It's also good to see they view all dispatchers with the same old blanket view instead of knowing there are good ones out there.These are all great ways to promote professionalism and respect within the public safety field. It's good to see we can have a good debate on the merits of the topic without getting off topic....