Glass Ceilings

[RIO]

Not sure where to post this question, so please move it if it is better suited under another topic. We had a discussion last week about how law enforcement as an occupation is a predominantly male oriented occupation. Then one of the more outspoken women in the class said law enforcement was not only predominantly male oriented, but because of things like good old boy cronyism and other barriers law enforcement was predominantly a white male oriented occupation. She added that when women and minorities do get hired "glass ceilings" keep most of them from ever reaching the command ranks. I tried to disagree more based on gut feeling than on fact and got blown away. I still feel I'm right, so would anyone have any info to help me refute this? Thanks.

[Kimble]

Jody Weis (W/M): Superintendent of Chicago PD-
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/us/30weight.html

Raymond Kelly (W/M): Commissioner of NYPD-
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/ad...rters_co.shtml

William Bratton (W/M): Chief of Police of LAPD
http://www.governing.com/poy/2007/bratton.htm

Warren Riley (B/M): Superintendent of New Orleans PD
http://www.cityofno.com/pg-50-2-biography.aspx

Douglas Gillespie (W/M): Sheriff of Los Vegas Metropolitan PD
http://www.lvmpd.com/about/about_gillespie.html

Richard Pennington (B/M): Chief of Police of Atlanta PD
http://www.atlantapd.org/index.asp?nav=COP

Heather Fong (Asian/F): Chief of Police of San Francisco PD
http://www.sfgov.org/site/police_index.asp?id=24103

John Timoney (W/M): Chief of Police of Miami PD
http://www.miami-police.org/MIAMIPD/...t=Chief&page=1

A.C. Roper (B/M): Chief of Police of Birmingham PD
http://blog.al.com/hoover/2007/12/roperpic.JPG

Cathy Lanier (W/F): Chief of Police of Metropolitan PD
http://www.mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1230,Q,561417,mpdcNav,|,.asp

Charles Ramsey (B/M): Commissioner of Philadelphia PD
http://www.missva.com/2006/adrianna/...-_comp_doc.JPG


That's some of the largest cities in America, and clearly not all have white male department heads. I could go on with more examples, but I think you see the point. LE is a male-dominated career field, but there are plenty of opportunities for females. White males dominate SOME departments, but clearly not all. Depends on the demographics in the area served by the department.

[WellAdvised]

I would say it depends on where you are in the world. Being male, white & hetereosexual where I work is of no value whatsoever. IMHO any possible hint of being from a minority will give you every possible advantage here.

[noelchabanel]

I still feel I'm right, so would anyone have any info to help me refute this? Thanks.

I don't know either position to be true or false; since I'm still on the outside looking in I don't have an opinion on that. But here's one very important piece of info to keep in mind: it is sometimes impossible to refute some people's opinions no matter how good your argument is. Some people have an axe to grind and don't want their ideology to be confused with facts. It's a big problem on college campuses. I had one of these people in my ethics (philosophy) class. I don't know what kind of grade she got, but she didn't seem to like the idea of making judgments and decisions based on logic rather than rhetoric and emotion.

Of course, I say that without being a member of any oppressed class, so if your friend is one of those types of activists, she might not care much about my opinion anyway ;)

[mcsap]

Logic would dictate that since our profession is populated mainly by white males,that mainly white males will populate the upper ranks.

It isn't near as much a racial thing as it is a numerical thing.

As more and more minorities are applying and are getting hired, the more of them also then progress to higher ranks.

[Samuel]

There's a good chance that what Noel said suits your classmate. All the facts, logic, statistics, etc in the world is probably not enough to change her mind. Another problem is that, in some places, what she says Probably still holds true...

[SSA1811]

It sounds almost as if your classmate is one of those "radical-liberals" from the 60's - 70's. There's a saying about opinions, "..... everyone has one.", and I would tend to agree with noelchabanel and Samuel that you are not going to be able to do much to change your classmates opinion anyway.

Nevertheless, adding to ROS's list of distinguished law enforcement personnel are a few women in Federal Law Enforcement who seemed to have overcome their glass ceilings:

Karen Tandy ................ Administrator, Drug Enforcement Administration
Julie Myers ................... Assistant Secretary Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Marcy Forman .............. Director, Office of Investigations, Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Eileen Mayer ................ Chief, IRS Criminal Investigations
Becky Barnes ............... Director, Office of Investigations EPA/CID
Nicole Johnson ............. Assistant Chief Inspector, US Postal Inspection Service
Colleen Callahan ......... Assistant Director, Federal Air Marshal Service
Charlene Lamb ............ Assistant Director International Programs, Diplomatic Security Service

.

[Jynkxxie]

I am in NO WAY bragging about this, but the chief of the Detroit Police is a woman, and she is not white. She graduated from the same school that I studied criminal justice from. So I guess you will just have to tell her that the only barriers in life are the ones you set for yourself.



Bully-Cummings

[Hockey9019]

I am in NO WAY bragging about this, but the chief of the Detroit Police is a woman, and she is not white. She graduated from the same school that I studied criminal justice from. So I guess you will just have to tell her that the only barriers in life are the ones you set for yourself.



Bully-Cummings

Thank you for not emphasizing about not bragging about it ;) :p


She has done some good for the city however...some


If you look at the times, 10 years ago, it was VERY rare for any woman to be in control in the LE field. However, more women are going into the LE field currently, so in several years, as they move up, we will see more women and minorities in the command role. Remember, 10 years ago, there were only a few women here and there. Currently, I would venture to say most departments have at least one sworn woman in the ranks.

Same with minorities.


Again, thats just my .01

[Ispbear]

I guess my rebuttal would be that there are less females that are interested in a career in law enforcement than males. Therefore the number of females on a department compared to the number of males on a department are highly offset as compared to "normal" careers. Instead of looking at raw numbers, the percentage of females/males on a department compared to the percentage of females/males in supervisory roles within that department would be a better indicator. Then you can throw in factors such as the number of females that are interested in supervisory positions versus the number of males wanting to be a supervisor. In this day and age I see no obstacles for a female being a supervisor. A good officer is a good officer no matter what the gender or race is.

[noelchabanel]

I guess my rebuttal would be that there are less females that are interested in a career in law enforcement than males. Therefore the number of females on a department compared to the number of males on a department are highly offset as compared to "normal" careers. Instead of looking at raw numbers, the percentage of females/males on a department compared to the percentage of females/males in supervisory roles within that department would be a better indicator. Then you can throw in factors such as the number of females that are interested in supervisory positions versus the number of males wanting to be a supervisor. In this day and age I see no obstacles for a female being a supervisor. A good officer is a good officer no matter what the gender or race is.

The local newspaper (Concord Monitor) had a series of articles several years ago (maybe late 1990's) about how state was getting in trouble with the feds a few years ago because there were so few female troopers being hired. I remember they cited a lack of female applicants as the reason, and that they were trying hard to get more women to apply, but that the interest just wasn't there. I looked for the articles to post links, but they are probably too old. I don't think the demographics have changed much though. Honestly, I don't think I've ever actually seen a female NH state trooper, and I grew up here--I'm 32 years old. As for minorities, NH, VT and ME are the three least racially diverse states in the the country (all three being less than 5% other than caucasian) so realistically there isn't much they can do about that here, short of giving preference to out of state applicants, which doesn't make much sense to me.

[DeltaV]

We've promoted a black female at the bottom of the eligibility list and passed over a white male at the top. While the "good ole boy" system is definitely alive in well at many of the smaller departments, the opposite is true with the larger departments. Politicians and departmental administrators want diversity, and anyone who works for a mid to large size agency probably can give you a laundry list of incompetent officers who were promoted or given choice assignments because of their race or sex. It's much, much easier to get promoted at a large agency if you're a member of a minority group--even if you aren't the best qualified.

[Aussie George]

When I transferred to my current dept, the Chief Police Officer was Audrey Fagan. She was well liked by everyone I have spoken to and her death last year was a tragedy.

Victoria (one of our states) has a female in charge, Commisioner Nixon.

In my current dept there are four districts. Each district has an OIC. My last OIC is a female.

Our deputy Chief at the moment is female.

The Commander in charge of our Airport Policing is a female.

One of the factors is that a lot of females take time off work for babies. Now that in itself is not a reason to discriminate a worker but if someone is spending ten years on the job and getting great results and they are male and they take no lengthy periods off work, then naturally they are going to have a better work history with more results than a female that takes a year or two off (depending on the amount of children) during that same time.

If we are promoting on displayed work performance and not to suit some PC quotas then of course this is also going to limit the amount of females in higher ranking positions. Coupled with the simple fact that men in the profession out number females, then of course the amount of women higher up the tree is going to be smaller.

It is simple maths. If the workforce is only made up of 25% females, then naturally only 25% of the bosses should be females, unless for some unkown reason, that females are better at the job than males based soley on their sex.

(keep in mind that 25% is a figure I plucked out for example reasons only - I wouldn't have a clue what the real figure is).

If we are to promote based on performance only, then the best person should get the job and sex should have nothing to do with it.

[Samuel]

While the "good ole boy" system is definitely alive in well at many of the smaller departments, the opposite is true with the larger departments.

+1...