Would a good criminal justice school admit someone who is probably an ineligble hire?

[MSUCJ2008]

I am a student at Michigan State University (the nation's oldest degree granting CJ program) and we don't have any backgroud or anything like that to get into the BA for CJ. I have never heard of any school checking your background, the only thing that matters is that you can pay

[DEBRAROMAN]

Fort Lauderdale criminal defense lawyers Schwartzreich & Yates have no better way to advertise their law practice than to spam law enforcement websites. I will show myself the door now (italics added by moderator).

[kels]

Because they can become lawyers.
The standards are way lower.

[Old Trooper]

....bottom line - as long as your tuition check doesn't bounce, you're in the program!!! :D

[Jennifer]

saw a Discovery Channel on a mass murderer who got a CJ degree after his initial conviction / incarceration for assault etc and before he was arrested for the killings.

THey think he was able to avoid capture so long as he was trained in evidence collection.

actually many serious violent offenders have an interest in LE. Some do it to help perfect their MO while others do it as a perverse game of "catch me if you can." Often, the suspect in an abuduction case will be one of the volunteers "helping" to look for the victim.
Incarcerated criminals will also become keenly interested in law and LE so they can use the system.

[Jennifer]

As it has been said, if you can afford it and meet the requirements what you major in school is not subject to a background investigation. Heck, before deciding on the MSW, I was going to go for a either a Master's in CJ or a Master's in Forensic Science at the University of New Haven. No background check needed!

[Ispbear]

The college I attended now does background checks on it criminal justice students prior to being admitted into the program. Back in the days I attended they would just weed the ones out that didn't belong.
I was talking to the head of the CJ department at the college. He explained that they always have a large number of applicants for the program and they got tired of turning away good students because they were full. So now if they have something in their background that would be an automatic DQ'ed by state standards they are turned away to make room for someone that actually has a chance.

[Creeker]

Fort Lauderdale criminal defense lawyers Schwartzreich & Yates have no better way to advertise their law practice than to spam law enforcement websites. I will show myself the door now (italics added by moderator).

...and thusly so, Spammers revive a necrophiliated thread.... :rolleyes:

My suggestion to Moderators is that a thread be closed when revived by spam... just my .025 worth.

[intreker05]

Thanks to all who answered my question.

I come from the finance/economics discipline (and I used to be an engineering major before I dropped.) My career was and is an extremely important point of discussion with my advisers in both majors.

Furthermore, I would think my school benefits from a robust salary survey from its graduates. I can't see how having many of your students working in a McDonalds after graduation if their background is disqualifying is a good thing.

However, I will concede most finance/economics schools don't ask if you have been convicted of theft. You cannot work in a bank for life with a theft conviction, no matter how minor, without a waiver. So I can understand, though I don't agree with, criminal justice, education, and nursing schools not probing through an applicant's background.

But why should it have to require a background check? There are a huge number of people that are in criminal justice degree programs that will never apply for a job where they are required to have a background check. A large number of CJUS students end up at law school or going on and getting masters degrees and teaching or doing research. There are also a lot of students from other majors that end up working in the criminal justice field, or some other field that would require them to have a background check. Does that mean that every English major needs a background check before they go through the program? No, of course not. Besides, most college statistics as to whether a college is good or not has nothing to do with what students do after school, but what they do during school. How many full time faculty they have, how many published faculty, average GPA, average SAT score, etc. Most universities don't follow up with students and ask if they're working at McDonald's or a Fortune 500 company.
Besides, most kids at 18 years of age, when they hit college, don't have criminal records. Any minor crimes get wiped out when you hit 18 and most kids with major convictions probably won't end up in college. Normally, it's the stupid stuff kids do in college that keeps them from getting hired, like underage drinking, DUI, assault, or drug use. So coming into the university, background checks would simply be a worthless, pointless waste of time and money.

The college I attended now does background checks on it criminal justice students prior to being admitted into the program. Back in the days I attended they would just weed the ones out that didn't belong.
I was talking to the head of the CJ department at the college. He explained that they always have a large number of applicants for the program and they got tired of turning away good students because they were full. So now if they have something in their background that would be an automatic DQ'ed by state standards they are turned away to make room for someone that actually has a chance.

No offense, but I think that's stupid. Criminal justice isn't a major just for law enforcement officers. There are a lot of CJUS type occupations that don't require a background check, like research and development type jobs. It's a waste of time and money that isn't necessary. But hey, why not, tuition keeps rising, I might as well go on and pay for something else.

[retdetsgt]

Personally, I don't think a CJ degree is the best even for LE. If you have any ideas of going up in rank, get a degree in Public Administration. Frankly, I'd recommend a degree in computer science if you plan to be an investigator. Hacking into computers w/o losing data is becoming more and more important.

I think I probably learned more helpful information getting my undergrad and graduate degrees in sociology than I saw in the CJ program at my college.

Frankly, outside LE, a CJ degree is about as good as a degree in Ancient Greek History.

[intreker05]

Personally, I don't think a CJ degree is the best even for LE. If you have any ideas of going up in rank, get a degree in Public Administration. Frankly, I'd recommend a degree in computer science if you plan to be an investigator. Hacking into computers w/o losing data is becoming more and more important.

I think I probably learned more helpful information getting my undergrad and graduate degrees in sociology than I saw in the CJ program at my college.

Frankly, outside LE, a CJ degree is about as good as a degree in Ancient Greek History.

If you've ever seen the musical Avenue Q...Basically naughty puppets...well, there's this song that basically goes, "what can you do with a BA in English" and comes to the conclusion that there's nothing at all that you can do. But, being a CJUS major, I've seen a lot of professors that have gone the research/law/public policy/social work route instead of the LE route, so there is a lot you can do with CJUS, but you need a masters or specialized degree, like law, to do anything other than LE.
Ancient Greek History, huh. I almost got a degree in Egyptology, then realized I'd be sitting at a desk putting together pieces of pottery for eight hours a day. I changed my mind.

[retdetsgt]

But, being a CJUS major, I've seen a lot of professors that have gone the research/law/public policy/social work route instead of the LE route, so there is a lot you can do with CJUS, but you need a masters or specialized degree, like law, to do anything other than LE.

Unless it's changed appreciably, and it may well have, CJ degrees were degrees put together when universities saw a path to lure police and potential police. The one where I graduated was a hodge podge of some psychology, some sociology, some business and one class or two on criminal law. The latter, plus investigation is taught much better at academies.

I literally had the the former head of the CJ program at Washington State University as my trainee when I was working. He later told me he hadn't really planned to stay and was only taking the job as a sabbatical. He also confided to me that he had no idea that real police work would be what it was. And again, he had been the head of the dept. That gave me an idea of the quality of education people were getting for the job. BTW, he stayed and just recently retired as a lieutenant.

But it's not just CJ programs, when I was working on my masters, I was also working the poor African American section of my city. I saw poverty up close and personal on a daily basis and talked to those same people as often. My professors, who were probably scared to death of most black people who weren't in academia, still thought they knew it all. I was continually amazed and sometimes disgusted at the drivel they threw out as truth to students. When I tried to show the effect government programs had on perpetuating the poverty, I was shouted down by people who hadn't talked to a poor person in decades.:rolleyes:

Bottom line is that people learn all they need to know about being a cop in the academy. A degree can be used to suppliment knowledge and I would never discourage it. However, based on my experience, I'd strongly recommend people find another discipline to study. As I said earlier, a degree in Public Admin would be invaluable to anyone going up in rank. Even a degree in English is more valuable since writing skill can be so important in the job. Not only in police reports, but unless you stay in a uniform patrol slot, you will probably be called upon to write some pretty serious research papers from time to time. And whether something happens or doesn't may depend on those skills.

[intreker05]

Unless it's changed appreciably, and it may well have, CJ degrees were degrees put together when universities saw a path to lure police and potential police. The one where I graduated was a hodge podge of some psychology, some sociology, some business and one class or two on criminal law. The latter, plus investigation is taught much better at academies.

I literally had the the former head of the CJ program at Washington State University as my trainee when I was working. He later told me he hadn't really planned to stay and was only taking the job as a sabbatical. He also confided to me that he had no idea that real police work would be what it was. And again, he had been the head of the dept. That gave me an idea of the quality of education people were getting for the job. BTW, he stayed and just recently retired as a lieutenant.

But it's not just CJ programs, when I was working on my masters, I was also working the poor African American section of my city. I saw poverty up close and personal on a daily basis and talked to those same people as often. My professors, who were probably scared to death of most black people who weren't in academia, still thought they knew it all. I was continually amazed and sometimes disgusted at the drivel they threw out as truth to students. When I tried to show the effect government programs had on perpetuating the poverty, I was shouted down by people who hadn't talked to a poor person in decades.:rolleyes:

Bottom line is that people learn all they need to know about being a cop in the academy. A degree can be used to suppliment knowledge and I would never discourage it. However, based on my experience, I'd strongly recommend people find another discipline to study. As I said earlier, a degree in Public Admin would be invaluable to anyone going up in rank. Even a degree in English is more valuable since writing skill can be so important in the job. Not only in police reports, but unless you stay in a uniform patrol slot, you will probably be called upon to write some pretty serious research papers from time to time. And whether something happens or doesn't may depend on those skills.

It may simply be my department. I'm at IU Bloomington, we started out as a forensics department and moved into CJUS so it focuses on science, policy, research, and several different aspects. I have to take two research methods classes and history of criminal justice classes and those are the required ones. There are very few classes I'm taking that I think will actually help me in becoming a cop, except some of the topics courses I'm doing these last two semesters, like sex offenders and juvenile crime. Of course, I'm also doing an English major so I'll have both bases covered. But, back to the original topic, that's one of the reasons I don't think CJUS background checks should be required, otherwise you'd have to make everyone take one, like you said, that was doing public policy, or in my case, English. It's just another expense that's going to be filtered back to the students, and with rising tuition costs, I really don't need anything else on my bursar bill at the end of the month.

[retdetsgt]

I have to take two research methods classes and history of criminal justice classes and those are the required ones.

I can help you with that. I was there when they started. (But I doubt any of this were mentioned by your professor.)

I didn't seriously start college until I was already a cop. I was midway through my undergraduate program when the Democratic Congress under Nixon decided that cops would be less apt to beat up people if they were educated. In the spirit of the welfare state started by LBJ, they began paying tuition to any college a cop could get accepted to, including Harvard. The only requirement was that you be a working police officer and agree to work for 5 years after you finish.

Up until that moment, colleges had no CJ courses and probably still thought of cops as knuckle draggers. (Some had criminology programs, but they were a branch of psychology, not intended for working cops.) So they hurriedly began setting up these programs by pulling a little from here, a little from there and calling it either Criminal Justice or Administration of Justice. Instead of seriously trying create something worthwhile, they just took what they had and ran with it. I looked at the programs and frankly thought they were a cop's liberal arts program. They pulled a few psych classes that I took anyway such as abnormal behavior, some sociology classes such as juvenile delinquency and so forth that were applicable. But there were so few of them that they could have been integrated into any program as electives.

My experience is that there are better disciplines to bring into police work than a CJ degree. As a supervisor in detectives, I would have LOVED to have had a detective with a background in computer science. We had a few self taught that were pretty good, but none I would trust to break into a the computer of a sophisticated criminal.

I started and finally quit a Public Administration graduate program. I was impressed with how it actually taught me stuff that would be more than helpful if I decided to move into management. (I quit because I made a decision I didn't want any higher rank) I would strongly advise anyone that wants to be a Lt or higher go that route.

You really learn what you need in the police academy to be a basic cop. It's nice when someone can bring in something different from the civilian world to the job. We used to have a guy assigned to drugs that was an accountant. He was a whiz at locating assets of drug dealers. Another guy has a degree in Electrical Engineering. He can bug your house, car and cell phone and you'd never know it. He's retired now and is still in demand by local depts when they have eavesdropping warrants. Nothing like that is taught in CJ programs and everybody and their dog have one of those degrees.

I'm glad you're doing an English major. I was continually disappointed at the deterioration of writing skills I saw even as police became more educated. As a detective and Sgt., I read at least 20-30 police reports a day and many were mediocre and some were awful. Good grief, look at the writing of many posting here that aspire to be cops! They write like they're on My Space. The guys with HS diplomas that were there when I came on were much better in describing events and situations in writing.

On the other note, the background check might give some of the more feeble minded a true picture of their odds of going into LE. From the questions we get here, I would believe there are a lot of clueless folks out there.:rolleyes:

[Tylegn]

[+1]