Inspectors to move across border

[chewy]

Question for those that know.

Why are we sending ppl to Canada ?
We do handle this side of the boarder don't we ?
Do we not trust Canada to handle thier side ?

I mean I could see Mexico, not unarmed mind you, but do we need to reinforce the boarder between the US and Canada and Canada did not agree ????

It isn't an issue of either side not doing the job. It is simply logistics. They want to have both agencies in one location so that they dont have stops on two sides. It would just keep backup's down. The Canadians, for now, would still be responsible for their laws and the U.S. for ours. The combining would allow us to share facilities and resources which, in a perfect non political world would be great. We, for the most part, get along well with eachother. IT's the management and politics that screw everything up. I can't state strongly enough how well the Candians do at their job, and in some areas they do better than we do on the U.S. side. Combining resources and working more closely together (both physically and politically speaking) would be a great benefit for both countries but I don't understand why that requires us to loose our weapons. Canada doesn't allow handguns and even our regular police, us or other government agents can't go to Canada armed without prior approval from thier government. Some agencies like the DEA (and I'm sure others) that work on the RCMP task forces etc have a standing approval but for the most part it isn't allowed. We had a few issues the last year or so with DPD officers chasing people INTO Canada and they almost got fired. You CAN NOT just do a "hot pursuit" into another country, let alone just driving over there for no reason (which DID get a couple local Officers fired). But, even with that, the fact that there will be a "international" area at the border where we can be in Canada and still arrest for violations of U.S. import/export laws should be enough to let us wear our weapons in that area, and just lock them up if we leave the area and proceed into Canada. I don't get it but then again it's politics and when you have hundreds of politicians ALL wanting to be in charge there will definatly be problems and stupidity.

There is talk of, eventually, when Canada and the U.S. agree on immigration law issues, of combining and having a joint U.S./Canada (North Amreican) Customs/immigration service. IF...big on the IF... this does happen then we ultimatly would get rid of northern border ports all together and just focus on seaports and airports and the southern border. The idea is a good one where we would work side by side with the Canadians and vice versa at all Canada and U.S. seaports and airports and enforce the same laws. The big hold back on this cooperative effort is the fact that the Canadian laws are much different...and for immigration purposes, much more leanient but someday it may happen.

[Sleuth]

Let's think about this. A person gets arrested in Canda for violating US law - BUT HES NOT IN THE US. So, no miranda, but also no authority. He is outside "the special Customs territory of the US" and cannot be arrested. Now if Canada adopts US laws, perhaps. The lawyers will have a field day, and NO ONE WILL GET PROSICUTED! They will be out of the reach of US laws!Turns our Inspectors into just folks issuing warnings. "Gee sir, if you take this across the bridge, someone might arrest you. Better leave it here in Canada, where it's legal."

Unless, of course, Canada is going to ceed that land to the US - we could end up with the entire country as the 51st state!

As for guns - I would not serve a day unarmed. My life is worth more than some feel good policy!

[chewy]

Let's think about this. A person gets arrested in Canda for violating US law - BUT HES NOT IN THE US. So, no miranda, but also no authority. He is outside "the special Customs territory of the US" and cannot be arrested. Now if Canada adopts US laws, perhaps. The lawyers will have a field day, and NO ONE WILL GET PROSICUTED! They will be out of the reach of US laws!Turns our Inspectors into just folks issuing warnings. "Gee sir, if you take this across the bridge, someone might arrest you. Better leave it here in Canada, where it's legal."

Unless, of course, Canada is going to ceed that land to the US - we could end up with the entire country as the 51st state!

As for guns - I would not serve a day unarmed. My life is worth more than some feel good policy!

Well, your thinking isn't entirely true. We would still have complete arrest authority under U.S. law. We would be in a special customs area which would allow it as long as the person "has the intent of entering or exiting the U.S.". Just as now, if we stop a person and find a gun in the car we can seize it under export law because by him being in the outbound lane to Canada he has shown intent of exiting the country. Also, and this happened to me once, we stop a car pre-primary, he tries to turn around and go back to canada but we get him stopped. We find twenty something pounds of hydroponic MJ in the car. His lawyer tries to get him out of it saying it was an illegal search because he hadn't intended on entering the U.S., he just got lost. and then when that didn't work they said he wasn't at primary yet so he was still technically in Canadian territory. That doesn't work either and he goes to jail (well, twenty pounds, I think he actually spent about two hours in jail but what the heck...he paid a fine and lost his car). I'm sure that if such an arrangement happens there will be clear cut lines to determine what the area is that we can go to and still enforce the laws. It will probably become some kind of international border area that gives both countries their respective full authorities in that zone. It will be interesting to see. Especially when we arrest a Canadian on their side of the river.

[Sleuth]

Chewy, At the San Ysidro POE, primary was well inside the US. Pre-primary was inside the line, not in Mexico. That made the arrests pre-primary legal, as they were inside the special Customs Territory of the U.S.

Re the export of firearms, that is a US law (The Neutrality Act), that only requires "intent to export". You could arrest someone for consipircy to import something, but there is to my knowledge no statute that allows arrests in a foreign country for the potential violation of a US law.

Consider if a US officer were killed in Canada. The attacker could be arrested by the Canadians, but, since there is the potential for the death penalty, would they extridite him to the US? In Canada, I am sure the penalties are less than in the US.

Suppose the officer is only attacked, but not killed. Other than some provisions of the Patriot Act dealing with terrorism, you, as a US officer, could not arrest other than a citizens arrest (if they have that) in Canada.

These are issues that really need to be defined before you start working in a foreign country. I know that with it's close proxcimity and similarity to the US, it can be hard to think of Canada as a foreign land. And it can be hard to consider one of ours being injured or killed in the line of duty.

Look at it this way: Can you arrest someone in the US for violation of a Canadian law, before they enter Canada? No, you have no authority. You can tell Canada Customs, but you cann not take them into custody, for they have not broken any US law. It is not one world.

[chewy]

Chewy, At the San Ysidro POE, primary was well inside the US. Pre-primary was inside the line, not in Mexico. That made the arrests pre-primary legal, as they were inside the special Customs Territory of the U.S.

Re the export of firearms, that is a US law (The Neutrality Act), that only requires "intent to export". You could arrest someone for consipircy to import something, but there is to my knowledge no statute that allows arrests in a foreign country for the potential violation of a US law.

Consider if a US officer were killed in Canada. The attacker could be arrested by the Canadians, but, since there is the potential for the death penalty, would they extridite him to the US? In Canada, I am sure the penalties are less than in the US.

Suppose the officer is only attacked, but not killed. Other than some provisions of the Patriot Act dealing with terrorism, you, as a US officer, could not arrest other than a citizens arrest (if they have that) in Canada.

These are issues that really need to be defined before you start working in a foreign country. I know that with it's close proxcimity and similarity to the US, it can be hard to think of Canada as a foreign land. And it can be hard to consider one of ours being injured or killed in the line of duty.

Look at it this way: Can you arrest someone in the US for violation of a Canadian law, before they enter Canada? No, you have no authority. You can tell Canada Customs, but you cann not take them into custody, for they have not broken any US law. It is not one world.

That's one of the whole issues is that they would have to have the customs area as an international zone where we could both arrest, or Canada would have to grant us the ability. Otherwise it wouldn't work.

[hoosierdaddy]

I agree, not to mention once they get us over there without any weapons then they will suddenly go "hey, you don't have your weapons now...guess you don't need them" then there goes our LE status. I was reading the article and I laughed on the part that said the reason we don't want to give up our firearms was because we get "hazardous duty pay" if we wear them? WTF? I didn't even know that Customs HAD a hazardous duty pay. Where the heck do these reporters get their information? Just like the fact they keep calling us agents. How many agents do you know would give up their guns to go work in Canada? Not many I assure you. I get REAL ticked off by the fact that we seem to be the ones giving up everything. If this is such an issue with the Canadians about us carrying guns why the hell can't we do the same thing in reverse and have them on OUR side of the border? First of all, IF they CARRIED guns they would still be able to carry them on the U.S. side and we wouldn't make them give up all their gear to work here. Why we HAVE TO go to their side AND get all kinds of grief about our weapons is beyond my comprehension but I'm sure our management/government is just ALL TOO HAPPY to pull our authority and stick us over there. Sometimes I wonder why we even go through the motions. :mad:

There's an easy way to solve your conundrum. Don't come to Canada. :eek: When in Rome...

[chewy]

There's an easy way to solve your conundrum. Don't come to Canada. :eek: When in Rome...

I have lived on the border for eight years and have been to Canada four times, twice on my own and twice for work related things. I don't go to Canada but if they make us for our job I won't have much choice as it currently appears I will never beable to get another job :(

[hoosierdaddy]

Hey Chewy, sorry to hear that. :( I hope you know I wasn't tryin to come across like a punk. It's just that I had some kind of reaction to your post because I know that Americans don't care what we think...when we are there we go by their rules. I just think they have to expect the same when they come here. So you lived on a border too eh?

[chewy]

Hey Chewy, sorry to hear that. :( I hope you know I wasn't tryin to come across like a punk. It's just that I had some kind of reaction to your post because I know that Americans don't care what we think...when we are there we go by their rules. I just think they have to expect the same when they come here. So you lived on a border too eh?

I totally agree, and yes, I live on a border. In fact I work for US Customs, now Customs & Border Protection.

[K-9MALY]

Hoosier, are you Customs or a LEO? No biggie if your not, if your a Canadian Citizen, how do you feel about us coming over to work? You know we are against it, but I haven't heard anything or any ripples about the Canadian views.

[JBT]

Sleuth, from my time with INS as an Inspector, we had pre-flight inspection in many foreign countries. I think the US inspections being done on the Canadian side will be much in the manner. Thus the rules governing would be the same.

In this situation, the only thing that comes to mind that is a positive, would be the ability to turn around those individuals that are not allowed entry into the US. For both Customs and INS issues. Other than that, it is a bad idea all around.

Chewy and I have had discussions on this already. All I can say I am happy I am off the border and I hope those still there and get out too.

[chewy]

Sleuth, from my time with INS as an Inspector, we had pre-flight inspection in many foreign countries. I think the US inspections being done on the Canadian side will be much in the manner. Thus the rules governing would be the same.

In this situation, the only thing that comes to mind that is a positive, would be the ability to turn around those individuals that are not allowed entry into the US. For both Customs and INS issues. Other than that, it is a bad idea all around.

Chewy and I have had discussions on this already. All I can say I am happy I am off the border and I hope those still there and get out too.

but our management is excited about it so how bad of an idea can it be???

OOOOhhh God, were Fk'ed!

[JBT]

but our management is excited about it so how bad of an idea can it be???

OOOOhhh God, were Fk'ed!

Any time management is excited and thinks it is a good idea, then you are right you're Fk'ed!


Just think of the options for lunch breaks now, wait.......you don't get lunch breaks. Bummer.

[chewy]

Any time management is excited and thinks it is a good idea, then you are right you're Fk'ed!


Just think of the options for lunch breaks now, wait.......you don't get lunch breaks. Bummer.

Used to be you could eat as long as you ate while clearing traffic. Now we aren't even allowed that.

[hoosierdaddy]

Hoosier, are you Customs or a LEO? No biggie if your not, if your a Canadian Citizen, how do you feel about us coming over to work? You know we are against it, but I haven't heard anything or any ripples about the Canadian views.

Hey K9 (like that by the way. if I can be a cop I want to be K9), how's it goin? Anyway...I will try to say this as diplomatically as possible...I don't like it. I feel it would be a slap in the face against us. We are our own sovereign nation.

I can see how it may have some good to it though. If you had some guards on our side and we LIKEWISE had some of ours on your side, then it would maybe make border crossing more efficient. Instead of crossing the border and being turned back, one would be turned back before even getting the CHANCE to cross the border. But that won't happen cuz the bridge/tunnel here in Windsor-Detroit would make way less money. And money is the bottom line.