PTSD and LEO

[odiedog52]

New guy here, just introduced myself in the new guy forum. First, a quick tidbit about myself .

I'm 25 and I just came off of 5 years with the 82nd Airborne Division as an Airborne Infantryman/Paratrooper and currently have a year left with the California Army National Guard in a Recon/Sniper platoon. I was deployed to Iraq from 06-08 and am looking to use my GI Bill and get a bachelors degree and entertaining the idea of law enforcement, which besides the military is one of the things I've always wanted to do.

While in Iraq and being in the Infantry and at only 20 years old at the time, I saw/did some things that most people should never have to see or do, as I'm sure LEO's have to deal with as well. I've had some issues, that I would call mild PTSD, that I will soon finally begin working out with the VA. If I am diagnosed with PTSD and even more so, if I receive disability/compensation for it, what are my chances of becoming a LEO?

I'm still highly functioning (aka normal) and unless you knew me well, you'd think that nothing was wrong. Also, I plan on getting my bachelors degree so this process of trying to join wouldn't be for another 4 or so years.

Am I wasting my time even trying, or am I sure to get a DQ on the pysch eval?

Besides that, my background is pretty clean minus a few tickets and a drunk in public, which I'm sure don't help .. but my main concern is having the label of PTSD.

Thank you all.

[mcsap]

1st, thanks for serving your country.

We have all seen a lot of things in our lifetimes , some worse than others. I,ll agree that you have probably seen the worst end of the prectrum.

We are of course concerned about the mental health of an applicant. We are in essence the " infantry " of the USA IN the USA. We are the " frontline " troops in the policing of America.

Part of the hiring process is a checkup with a shrink. If you have a diagnosed mental health issue AND are also actually getting some sort of diability for it , that isn't good for a prospective recruit. It says NOTHING bad about you personally but we carry guns and have to deal with people. We cannot take the risk of having someone with a diagnosed mental health issue having the authority to carry and use deadly weapons.

Continue in whatever treatment you can get and work through it as best as you can. You can even ask your shrink what they would think about you applying to work as a LEO. It may be to your benefit to hold off on applying with a PD and maybe some time and treatment will get you through this.

We always NEED good officers and prior military does give you a great advantage but we need for you to be on the money with your ability to deal with people and be in life and death situations.

[retdetsgt]

Wow. First, thanks for your service.

I retired with PTSD up the wazoo from police work and no doubt, Vietnam where I was an infantry platoon leader. I'm sure I had it when I got out of the Army, but back then it wasn't recognized unless you were cold, stone nuts. Back then, you "macho'd" it out.

I'd be willing to bet that most police departments aren't going to be choked up about hiring someone already diagnosed with PTSD. I would suspect strongly that if you go and get a diagnoses and receive a disability for it, that will end it. You see, police departments face all sorts of scrutiny when one of us gets in a shooting. If you kill someone as a cop, the defense will find out that you were hired with that disability and use it to hold the department liable. Although you may well be mentally healthy, it will be drug all over the courtroom and most agencies don't want to deal with that.

Good luck in how you want to handle it. You have my empathy, you can bet on that.

[odiedog52]

Thank you both for the responses.

If my chances of being a LEO are pretty much nill if I have diagnosed PTSD (regardless of how minor or severe) or other mental condition, then it definitely makes me rethinking my appointments I have in two weeks.

I know I'm of stable mind, most of my issues are sleep disorders and I know I could handle the stress and the other things related to the job. I think it would be normal for people to have problems with the things I've seen .. before I could legally drink, I had shot/killed people, dragged dead bodies, watched people bleed out to death, seen dogs eat dead bodies, bodies on fire, etc ... and I think for anyone to not have some trouble with that would NOT be normal.

So, I'm in a pickle. I either deal with it and continue thinking it's not serious, which I don't think it is (I've never been diagnosed with anything), or I get an evaluation and lose the opportunity to become a LEO. Tough call.

I suppose I have two more quick questions.

1) Do PDs look down on disability in general? I have a few things I've claimed, another of which is for chronic knee pain for a torn ACL/MCL and chrondromalacia patella from an airborne jump gone wrong. I'm fine, just chronic pain and the Army never gave me surgery. Will something like this be an issue?

2) What I perceive as "mild PTSD" (and again, this is undiagnosed and for all I know I could be way off base here and it could be nothing), if I didn't get a diagnosis and went to school and applied to be a LEO and passed with flying colors, would I be flagged if I received treatment for PTSD and possibly received disability after I had become a police officer? I'm not trying to be shady and work around the system and I'm sure you wouldn't like your partner hiding things like that, I'm just trying to get the gravity of the entire situation and what my options may be.

I'm young and have served my country and now I want to serve my community and through no fault of my own, I may not have that opportunity. Bleh.

Sorry for the drawn out response / rambling .. and a sincere thank you for the replies. retdetsgt, thanks for your service. Maybe I'm just being a *****, because I know Iraq has NOTHING on how horrific Vietnam was.

[L-1]

Odie,

I take it from your post that you are in California.

With respect to medical issues, take a look here: Medical Screening Manual - Commission on POST

These are the medical standards most California agencies follow. Show them to your doctor and he should be able to tell you if any of your medical conditions fall outside acceptable limits.

With respect to PTSD, it will depend on your mental state at the time of hire. You will be required to undergo psych screening to determine if you are free from any emotional or mental condition that might adversely affect the exercise of the powers of a peace officer and to otherwise ensure that you are capable of withstanding the psychological demands of the position.

If you want to know what is involved in the psych exam, go here http://lib.post.ca.gov/publications/...quirements.pdf and start reading at Section 9055

Some of the personal dimensions the psych exam looks for can be found here: http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/...cal-traits.pdf

[retdetsgt]

I can't and don't try to speak for anyone else. The PTSD I got as a cop was different than Vietnam in that it was a slower process. I hate to sound cold, but dead bodies at traffic wrecks, etc didn't stir up anything. Like you, I've seen a lot worse. Just the sight of dead people, no matter the condition was kind of a "sucks to be him" sort of thing.

But I spent a lot of my career working sex crimes and homicide. I think most of mine came from the crimes against little kids and then having to shove down the anger, etc. when I talked to the suspect. I can't count the times I've had to act like some baby raper's new best friend so I could get a confession because so often the case hinged on that. It wasn't so much what I saw as what I had to stuff down over the years. To be successful in this job, you have to be "professional" at all times and not, at least outwardly take anything personally. At the end it just all boiled up and overflowed. I took my anger out on the command mostly, but a few times could have taken the head off some kid at Burger King who screwed up my Whopper order. I was fortunate in that I was able to NOT take it out on peers or people who worked for me.

I took anti-depressants for several years and spent 6 years in pretty intense therapy. The anti-depressants weren't really for depression as the free floating anxiety I had. One of the symptoms is hyper-vigilance. I still have a mixture of Army/police dreams, but they aren't like they used to be. A gun that won't fire used to be pretty common. Oddly enough, now I dream that I'm either going back in the Army or the police station where I worked, but all my stuff is gone and I can't find out what my job is. Strange.....

I wish I could give you better advice, I really do. I'll send you a PM.

[odiedog52]

L-1, yep .. In California. Living in Calaveras County now, two hours east of Sacramento. My Guard unit's armory is in Modesto and we train down at Camp Roberts near SLO quite a bit. Thanks for the links, they are extremely helpful.

retdetsgt, besides some sleep disorders I've been experiencing, hyper-vigilance is a thing I've becoming to know well. At first I thought it was just paranoia, but after a little reading into PTSD, hyper-vigilance fits it perfectly. And the dreams of a malfunctioning weapon hit close to home, considering the first few months I was in country my M4 would always fail to extract after the first or second round and I'd have to clear the malfunction lol.

I have my moments, which are few and far between ... which I like to think everybody has their moments now and again for X reason, but I know it's not the same when you're throwing a guy on the street with a weapon to protect and serve and he needs a free and clear mind.

I'll keep looking into it and reading. Thanks everyone for the support and for the help. One way or another, it looks like I have a big decision coming up.

Cheers.

[retdetsgt]

I have my moments, which are few and far between ... which I like to think everybody has their moments now and again for X reason, but I know it's not the same when you're throwing a guy on the street with a weapon to protect and serve and he needs a free and clear mind.

For me, I held it together at work for a lot longer than I held together in my personal life. I lost a great marriage because I was fine at work, but on the way home the muscles in my upper back and neck would start tightening up and by the time I got home, I was a mess. I naturally assumed that it was because of the home life, I learned later that it was because I was letting go of my "professionalism" and the PTSD was taking over.

About a year after I retired, I turned on the tv during the day, I never do that. They were on a news story that one of our officers had just been shot and killed. I had this really weird urge to go to the scene. Now I knew this was stupid, but what it was, if I was at the scene I would be the professional, jam down the emotions and go through my "just the facts, Ma'am". Not being there, I had to deal with it as a normal person and I didn't want to do that.

But even just before I left, I never really went off on the public much at all, it was at the command who got the brunt. My last day, I called the chief of police (paraphrasing) a sniveling sodomizer of men. At that point, I knew I made a career decision and left, but also got help. I went off on disability for a while and got a great compliment. That same chief told me that if I wanted to come back, he'd find a place for me. But I knew that my career was over, besides it was 28 years, that was enough.

[retdetsgt]

One other thing, odiedog, stay away from booze. Any alcohol is a depressant and can make things worse real quick. I used it as a "temporary fix" and the consequences were damn near fatal.

[Joeyd6]

The VA currently stated PTSD is "curable." Meaning most getting PTSD benefits/compensation from the VA, should not be collecting for life. Those who are diagnosed and collect, by many states standards, and most federal 1811 (not sure about other LEO jobs), are not getting hired. I know for a fact the FBI and USSS will decline you with a PTSD diagnosis when you are collecting compensation from the VA.

It is sad, but there are two groups of folks out there. Those who come back without it and get told by various service reps and organizations how easy it is to get (and it is as easy as saying it since this President stated all you have to do is say you have it), and those who do have it.

If you don't have it and are thinking about the comp money, don't do it. The VA-OIG is working tons of cases where there men/women got the VA PTSD rating for the benefits. Now they are getting turned down from jobs with security clearance rating and law law enforcement jobs. They come forward and try to stop benefits and have it removed form their record so they get what they want. Unfortunately for them they are in a pickle...they have to admit they lied and stole money or give up their wanted career.

If you have it, forget the law enforcement job, get the treatment you need and move on in life. If you had issues with some of the stuff there, ignore your problem stateside, as a cop, you are nothing more than a ticking time bomb. I am sure many other things interest you and you can have a great career, a full life and enjoy it. This job comes with lots of baggage. You are more important than any job you may want. Jobs are temporary and come and go. Your life is more important.

[retdetsgt]

The VA currently stated PTSD is "curable." Meaning most getting PTSD benefits/compensation from the VA, should not be collecting for life.

I suspect that's so they can deal with the posers. I know a lot of people who have had it for years who sure as hell aren't cured. Controlled, yes, cured, no. My father in law is getting disability for it from WWII when he served on the USS Enterprise. I'm not doctor, but I seriously believe real cases can only be reduced to a dull roar. The scars are permanent, you don't scratch that sh!t out of your brain. As I said, I had 6 years of weekly, intensive therapy. It makes me reasonably housebroken, but I wouldn't dare take a job where I routinely dealt with the general public. That sounds like it came from a bean counter.

But then again, the mental health community thinks they can cure sex offenders and police can be trained to deal with schizophrenics in a non violent manner at 2 in the morning too.

[Joeyd6]

But then again, the mental health community thinks they can cure sex offenders and police can be trained to deal with schizophrenics in a non violent manner at 2 in the morning too.

They think everyone is curable. Very few are realistic.

[MikeG]

If you have it, forget the law enforcement job, get the treatment you need and move on in life. If you had issues with some of the stuff there, ignore your problem stateside, as a cop, you are nothing more than a ticking time bomb. I am sure many other things interest you and you can have a great career, a full life and enjoy it. This job comes with lots of baggage. You are more important than any job you may want. Jobs are temporary and come and go. Your life is more important.

Is it possible to get treated at the VA without taking disability? For example, if I cut my hand, I get it treated and paid for by insurance but I don't take workmans comp or claim a disability unless it disabled me. Can PTSD be treated the same way?

[Safety Steve]

I did not read all the thread comments. Just wanted to say that in the academy one of my classmates served in the military in Iraq. He would get up on his bed in the middle of the night and begin yelling. It appeared he was reliving a military moment according to his roommates. I do not know if he had a diagnoses or not. He graduated.


Be Safe.

[Joeyd6]

Is it possible to get treated at the VA without taking disability? For example, if I cut my hand, I get it treated and paid for by insurance but I don't take workmans comp or claim a disability unless it disabled me. Can PTSD be treated the same way?

The VA has several divisions: (VHA = Veteran Healthcare Administration; VBA= Veterans Benefits Administration; NCA = National Cemetery Administration).

Financial payments for aid & attendance, injuries, PTSD, compensation payments, etc..... all come from VBA. The actual treatment you get comes from VHA. VHA will treat a veteran for any condition, service related or not. VBA, will pay if you make a claim and they verify the condition, sometimes verifying with VHA.

So yes, you can get treatment at the VHA for PTSD and never make the claim with VBA for the compensation portion. The VA rates on a % of 0-100 where you are with any condition, and then rates you again how much that condition combined with any other injuries disable you. So somebody could be 40% PTSD, and have a service disabled rating of 25% overall. Same person with a 40% PTSD, and 30% bulging disc and 20% hearing loss could end up having an overall rating of 60%. My numbers are all fakes but just an idea how it works.

Even though you are not collecting compensation, you can still get DQ'd from holding a federal security clearance in the LE world or fail a psych. Once your overall VA rating is more than 50%, good luck getting hired as a LEO, collecting comp or not.

The VA is handing out the PTSD rating like it is candy on Halloween as a result of this President issuing orders. You can walk in now, have served at a post in a non-combat area, never saw combat at all, and had a guy/gal tell you about a combat incident they experienced (true or untrue), and say that incident causes you nightmares or disturbing thoughts.......congrats...you now qualify for PTSD rating at the VA.

I believe there is PTSD and it needs to be treated. But I also believe (and know from work experience) there are a lot fakers. One of my co-workers who served in the Gulf blames a large portion of "borderline" cases on the hippie generation raising "pansies" and not teaching them how to deal with death; mortality; coping with stress, or the reality of the world and then send them into the military. I don't know if I would go that far personally, but it appears to be a hot topic with the Veterans I know.