Another Military Discharge Post.

[Cyclo2010]

Let me start off by saying I apologize for putting another one of these on your forums, a quick google showed me you have quite a few in your archives already.
Also let me say I read through everyone I could find in hopes of finding an answer but none of them exactly answered my question as everyone's case is different. Just wanted to let it be known that I did attempt to seek an answer before posting this as I know it is probably a bit tiresome to see so many of these.

Anyways as for my story, I will give the brief blunt explanation of events and then do a bit of explaining where I feel things need clarification.

I enlisted in the Marine Corps in Oct of 09. Spent several months training in the DEP and waiting my ship date until I left in April of 2010. Once at Parris Island at the Moment of Truth I came forward with having had Kidney Stones before (I have had one attack in my life). I was sent to medical and they did some test, one of the X-rays came back and showed some calcium deposits in my kidneys and that it is *possible* I still had the stones.

I was Discharged with an Entry Level Separation or "Fraudulent Entry into Military Service" and a Enlistment code of RE-3P (can go back but with a waiver). From the way I understand it the Entry Level Separation is not Honorable or Dishonorable, more or less a gray area where you did not serve long enough to warrant a more specific discharge.

The thing that concerns me the most is the big words "Fraud" on my Discharge papers.

Let me be the first to say that I know withholding information during the screening process is wrong, I am generally not the type to do things of that nature. I have a horrid conscious when it comes to those types of things and I am an extremely honest person. It was only because I really wanted to be a Marine and the coaching by my Recruiters did I withhold the information on the Kidney Stones.

Essentially what happened was upon my first meeting with my recruiter I disclosed the info on the Kidney Stones to him, he asked me if I had surgery because of it and I said no, he told me not to worry about it. Over the course of the several months I was in DEP I asked him multiple times if he sure it was ok, he always told me it was no big deal at all, that they only care about surgeries things of that nature and it would be much more of a headache to disclose it. Two other recruiters and the Recruiting Officer for that region who was in charge of our station told me the exact same thing, that I should not disclose it and pretend it does not exist.

Now I am not making excuses, I know I screwed up. I just did not want everyone to get the wrong idea about me, when you have that much pushing along and you want something bad enough it is easy to lose sight of things.

Regardless, at Parris Island during the moment of truth the DI giving the lecture was pretty convincing that if we were withholding something we needed to fess up and I figured I should go ahead and get it out there lest I end up having an Attack in Phase 3 and get sent home with all that work for nothing.

So there is my story, my main question I suppose is what are my chances of even getting far enough to explain my story to a Law Enforcement Recruiter? I plan on going back to school in the Fall and was going to aim for a two year Criminal Justice degree but I really did not want to waste my time if this issue is going to stone wall me from having an honest shot.

Thank you in advance for taking your time to read this, forums such as this are greatly appreciated and helpful.

[Curt581]

Let me start off by saying I apologize for putting another one of these on your forums, a quick google showed me you have quite a few in your archives already.
Also let me say I read through everyone I could find in hopes of finding an answer but none of them exactly answered my question as everyone's case is different. Just wanted to let it be known that I did attempt to seek an answer before posting this as I know it is probably a bit tiresome to see so many of these.

Anyways as for my story, I will give the brief blunt explanation of events and then do a bit of explaining where I feel things need clarification.

I enlisted in the Marine Corps in Oct of 09. Spent several months training in the DEP and waiting my ship date until I left in April of 2010. Once at Parris Island at the Moment of Truth I came forward with having had Kidney Stones before (I have had one attack in my life). I was sent to medical and they did some test, one of the X-rays came back and showed some calcium deposits in my kidneys and that it is *possible* I still had the stones.

I was Discharged with an Entry Level Separation or "Fraudulent Entry into Military Service" and a Enlistment code of RE-3P (can go back but with a waiver). From the way I understand it the Entry Level Separation is not Honorable or Dishonorable, more or less a gray area where you did not serve long enough to warrant a more specific discharge.

The thing that concerns me the most is the big words "Fraud" on my Discharge papers.

Let me be the first to say that I know withholding information during the screening process is wrong, I am generally not the type to do things of that nature. I have a horrid conscious when it comes to those types of things and I am an extremely honest person. It was only because I really wanted to be a Marine and the coaching by my Recruiters did I withhold the information on the Kidney Stones.

Essentially what happened was upon my first meeting with my recruiter I disclosed the info on the Kidney Stones to him, he asked me if I had surgery because of it and I said no, he told me not to worry about it. Over the course of the several months I was in DEP I asked him multiple times if he sure it was ok, he always told me it was no big deal at all, that they only care about surgeries things of that nature and it would be much more of a headache to disclose it. Two other recruiters and the Recruiting Officer for that region who was in charge of our station told me the exact same thing, that I should not disclose it and pretend it does not exist.

Now I am not making excuses, I know I screwed up. I just did not want everyone to get the wrong idea about me, when you have that much pushing along and you want something bad enough it is easy to lose sight of things.

Regardless, at Parris Island during the moment of truth the DI giving the lecture was pretty convincing that if we were withholding something we needed to fess up and I figured I should go ahead and get it out there lest I end up having an Attack in Phase 3 and get sent home with all that work for nothing.

So there is my story, my main question I suppose is what are my chances of even getting far enough to explain my story to a Law Enforcement Recruiter? I plan on going back to school in the Fall and was going to aim for a two year Criminal Justice degree but I really did not want to waste my time if this issue is going to stone wall me from having an honest shot.

Thank you in advance for taking your time to read this, forums such as this are greatly appreciated and helpful.

Depending on how old you are now, my suggestion would be to get checked out medically by a civilian doctor. If he treats you and/or gives you a clean bill of health, get the required waiver and go back in the Marines. Complete your hitch. Get your Honorable Discharge.

It'll look much better to a police department.

[Cyclo2010]

I am 21, and I have considered doing this.

The main issue is that with the economy the way it is right now recruitment even for the Marine Corps is at quite a low. In theory even if I could get a waiver and they cleared me for service again I could be waiting up to a year to ship back to Parris Island. I would much rather get started on a Criminal Justice degree and jump into Law Enforcement if it all possible.

I was mostly just testing the waters and seeing what peoples thoughts were, I will do what I have to do if it comes down to it.

[Curt581]

I am 21, and I have considered doing this.

The main issue is that with the economy the way it is right now recruitment even for the Marine Corps is at quite a low. In theory even if I could get a waiver and they cleared me for service again I could be waiting up to a year to ship back to Parris Island. I would much rather get started on a Criminal Justice degree and jump into Law Enforcement if it all possible.

I was mostly just testing the waters and seeing what peoples thoughts were, I will do what I have to do if it comes down to it.

A CJ degree is the next thing to worthless if you can't or don't get hired in LE. Pick something that will help you if you can't get a LE job. Most agencies don't care what your degree is, they just care if you have a degree or not.

Any discharge that is less or other than an Honorable Discharge won't look good to a hiring board. Going back in with a waiver shows a willingness to complete what you started, even if it meant overcoming an extra obstacle.

Being 21 now means you're expecting to get hired at 23-25. In many people's opinions, that at the borderline of being too young. You've got no life/work experience to speak of.

[Cyclo2010]

Your right, of course. What it comes down to is I made a commitment to the Marine Corps and need to fulfill my obligation, pretty much that simple. I suppose I just needed to see all that said for it to click.

Thanks for giving me the clarification you did!

[Excalibur]

Let me first start by saying I am not a LEO...yet. I have the same discharge you do, but for different reasons. Mine in uncharacterized for "fraud". I got to MCRD was there a month and had a loss of consciousness and was sent to the hospital. While there they asked if it had happened before I explained that I had only loss consciousness during blood drawl but never during normal activity, which is also what I told the Dr. at MEPS and he told me to put no because I was never seen by a doctor for the problem. I tried to fight it there at MCRD but they told me it would take 6 months to even get my case heard by JAG and I had to get back to school, so I didn't have 6 months. Fast forward, this is when I was 19, I am 23 now and I have received conditional job offers from many department but never selected, perhaps because of this problem perhaps not. It can happen but it may not as well. I have a B.A. from a pretty prestigious university in the south, and that helps but if I had an honorable discharge I am sure I would have been hired somewhere by now. I am starting the academy in January but I am also in the middle of having my discharge changed with the Naval Discharge Review Board, who has accepted my application and I feel I have a pretty good shot at getting it corrected. As a side note, when I applied to the NDRB to get it changed they sent me a letter saying that basically for the purpose of civilian employment an uncharacterized discharge was to be viewed as honorable, although this is not practiced from what I can tell. I am also joining the Texas State Guard which I hope will look good when applying to be a police officer in the future. Basically, long story even longer, it is possible but you have to be honest and make the good out weigh the bad.

**Edit: I am also going to say that I did not lie to get into the military such as yourself. I was asked if I had lost consciousness on the medical form, I asked the Doc, he said no because it was in a medical setting that is common (blood drawl). As mentioned before I am fighting this to get it corrected and pretty sure it will be. I have all my medical records from birth to date and there is nothing about loss of consciousness and as mentioned earlier joining the Texas Military Forces (all volunteer military in Texas, many states have state guards. More a humanitarian force for hurricanes, floods, etc...and best of all no pay!)later this month that is more suitable for me now (married, etc...unlike I was at 19) and while my dd-214 from the Corps won't go away, it will show that I am not trying to dodge any obligation.

[MikeG]

How far do 'Brady list' items extend into pre-LE experiences?

I have no idea how relevant it would be, but I'd suspect a defense attorney would be ecstatic to learn the officer making the complaint lied under penalty of perjury and it lead to his seperation.

For lots of reasons, you should not only get the waiver and complete service, but challenge that finding of fraud if it's on your 214 record. Things like that have a way of showing up 10 years down the road and never in the good way. Completing service honorably is a good way to show your intent was not fraud.

[Cyclo2010]

for the purpose of civilian employment an uncharacterized discharge was to be viewed as honorable, although this is not practiced from what I can tell.

This much is very true. While I was in RSP waiting to get shipped home I talked to the three main Marines (including one officer) who was above the Separation program on Parris Island. He assured us all that an entry level discharge is exactly the same as honorable in terms of employment. That was the entire point of the Moment of Truth, to have one last chance to clear your name with absolutely no repercussions. It is if you don't declare anything after that and you get caught that they said there would be issues.

I know a lot of hard asses, especially ex military don't believe this but that was straight from the horses mouth while I was on the island. The problem here is people are biased and when they see "Entry Level Discharge" they automatically assume it means the person could not cut it or have horrid morale standings, it is a vicious cycle.

[Excalibur]

For the Applicant’s edification, per MCO P1900.16E, Chapter 1 Section 1004 (Characterization of Service), paragraph 5 (Uncharacterized Separations), an uncharacterized separation shall be considered as the equivalent of an honorable or general (under honorable conditions) characterization.


Found the actual wording and authority on this.

[Cyclo2010]

Awesome, thanks for posting that. There is a stigma attached to Entry Level Separations that needs to get smashed on Law Enforcement forums. I hope people googling this topic will find this thread and get a bit of insight. There are way to many self-righteous posters on forums such as these who take it as a free pass to belittle and bash on people who received uncharacterized discharge discharged because they believe said person could not "hack it" it in the military. This is far from true and every situation should be judged.

Long story short I went to my local police department with my discharge papers just for the hell of it to try and get some answers once and for all. Not to my surprise at first they really did not know, the officer I spoke to asked around and looked up a few things and eventually came back and told me he saw no reason what so ever that discharge would keep me out of any Law Enforcement work. So as I said before I feel this really comes down to peoples personal bias to when they see that particular discharge and just think "Well that guy must either be a suicide risk or a quitter".

[LEOhopeful82]

I have the same entry code as you, but mine says "general under honorable" so mine would mean it is an honorable discharge.

[armydiver]

I have the same entry code as you, but mine says "general under honorable" so mine would mean it is an honorable discharge.

No. It would mean precisely that... It is a general discharge under honorable conditions. It is not an honorable discharge. If it were, it would state precisely that. Do not confuse the two as they are incredibly different.

I have seen soldiers recieve g.u.h. discharges for drug use and parterns of musconduct. Many agencies will not accept anything other than an ACTUAL honorable discharge. Be sure to contact them before applying to verify.

[Rlong1985]

I have the same entry code as you, but mine says "general under honorable" so mine would mean it is an honorable discharge.

Yep no difference between your general and an honorable discharge.....

Sorry but thats not right. Clear differences between the two and it should have been explained to you by the JAG or Legal Officer before you were discharged.

[Kimble]

No. It would mean precisely that... It is a general discharge under honorable conditions. It is not an honorable discharge. If it were, it would state precisely that. Do not confuse the two as they are incredibly different.

I have seen soldiers recieve g.u.h. discharges for drug use and parterns of musconduct. Many agencies will not accept anything other than an ACTUAL honorable discharge. Be sure to contact them before applying to verify.

Precisely. I worked a felony forgery investigation where the main subject was given retirement and decrease in rank in lieu of prosecution, and he got a General Under Honorable Conditions discharge. It's simply an administrative category for a Gen discharge, which is not the same as an Honorable discharge, and if an agency requires Honorable, you won't make the cut.

[retdetsgt]

I have the same entry code as you, but mine says "general under honorable" so mine would mean it is an honorable discharge.

At one time, what now gives you a GUH would have been a Bad Conduct Discharge. The GUH just sounds better and saves the military litigation money because people think it's not so bad.

GUH used to be given to people who proved to be worthless during basic training. It meant that you didn't do anything criminal, but we don't want people like you around. But again, people tended to fight the BCD more and it was just easier to go GUH and get rid of them.

If they were the same, yours would say "Honorable".