G.e.d.

[titan115]

After reading many of the thread posts on this site concerning job qualifications and disqualifications. then on my own doing research of many individual departments. Its a changing as we speak, but huge amounts of police departments only require a G.E.D.. So it appears from my perspective that police departments are willing to take G.E.D. candidates but are apprehensive about much more qualified people with criminal history(non felony) and minor drug use.

[Roger Dat]

GED is a minimum qualification. In my eyes if you couldnt stay in high school to finish a degree wh would I expect you to complete a tough physical and academic degree such as a police academy.

Might sound harsh but your going to be the lowest on the toten pole going in with just a GED

[titan115]

idea came from CJ assignment of minimum qualifications for leo's. If thats the minimum, it implies there must be some officers with it, or even just high school for that matter(by the way G.E.D. could be result of other causes like health, homeschool). Its about contradicting views of employment, so law enforcement is too competitive for small crime/minor drug users but yet many departments only ask for G.E.D.(I remember about 40-50% of departments ask for college). If the LEO job field is so competitive why don't they increase education standards?(like associate degree, military, post academy)

[Wanabe]

If you meet the minimum does not mean you will be hired. I think they should raise it and i believe some dept. have. I just feel like it would save money on processing those who dont really have a shot to begin with. IMO

[titan115]

true, it does not mean you will be hired. but i bet there is at least a couple out there. my idea is that disparity of disqualification for small crime and drug use(as some other threads would have you believe) vs. the lack of education does not seem proportional. lets take this on a higher example, president. Clinton admitted to experimental pot use and bush was highly suspected of cocaine use(for use of example lets say he did). I think the job of police officer is very stressful, important and prone to scrutiny, But the job of president is even more so. According to some threads recent commanders and chiefs are not qualified to be lesser civil servants. my opinion is that many police departments should increase education standards to at least associate or military

[dkl1986]

true, it does not mean you will be hired. but i bet there is at least a couple out there. my idea is that disparity of disqualification for small crime and drug use(as some other threads would have you believe) vs. the lack of education does not seem proportional. lets take this on a higher example, president. Clinton admitted to experimental pot use and bush was highly suspected of cocaine use(for use of example lets say he did). I think the job of police officer is very stressful, important and prone to scrutiny, But the job of president is even more so. According to some threads recent commanders and chiefs are not qualified to be lesser civil servants. my opinion is that many police departments should increase education standards to at least associate or military

Please learn how to write better. Reading your posts gives me a headache.

In response to your inquiries, from what I think are inquiries, the MINIMUM standards are just that; MINIMUM. Many who get a position exceed the minimum standards.

Many departments are upping standards. Look at the NYPD. "2 years in the US Armed Forces or 2 years of college (60 sem. units, 90 qtr. units).

[titan115]

Only about 14 percent of the departments surveyed by PERF require more than a high school diploma or equivalent for entry;
(from Education in Law Enforcement: Beyond the College Degree)

An Address by
Jeremy Travis, Director
National Institute of Justice
[U. S. Department of Justice]

Its true for further advancement, a higher education would be preferred. But should I believe every single officer has greater than minimum. minimum qualifications are still qualified right.

[DeltaV]

So it appears from my perspective that police departments are willing to take G.E.D. candidates but are apprehensive about much more qualified people with criminal history(non felony) and minor drug use.

Your perspective is obviously the perspective of someone who is currently enrolled in college and overvalues a college degree (because that's what your professors tell you).

MY perspective (as a LEO with a graduate level education) is that a GED can be just fine as long as the applicant has other qualifications. My department requires an associates degree unless the applicant has three years prior law enforcement or military experience. As an FTO, it's much more common to see someone straight out of college to fail the training program than it is for someone who is a prior-service LEO or who is ex-military.

Additionally, one of the requirements for law enforcement is for the applicant to be LAW ABIDING. Does that make an applicant with a GED more qualified than an applicant with a bachelor's degree and a criminal history? You bet. You can have 20 advanced degrees, but that doesn't mean you're of good moral character or are law abiding. It also doesn't mean you have the traits necessary for a good LEO. The truth of the matter is that degrees are overrated in this field. This is a blue collar job and it will always be a blue collar job. It doesn't take a college degree to do this job, as everything academic that you need to know is taught to you in the academy and during training. If you have the aptitude to retain that information, that's all that really matters.

[titan115]

I can agree that ex military and existing non degree holding officers will initially preform better but the police world is a changing one. more officers are required to do and know more things. Officers are now being required to respond to higher threats(not that it happens often) examples like hazmat, terrorism, more psychologically disturbed suspects. They also are being required to use more technology(biggest change has occurred in last 10 years, what's the next ten going to be like). Police in the future will be trained like psychologists, terrorist specialists, EMT, Technology majors and public education. In many ways the police are changing but it has father to go, with higher education being required across the board for american jobs. But in some places today you need more education to be assistant manager at burger king than a deputy sheriff. In my opinion that sends bad press to public, though its not true, police are many times viewed as government goons(partly due to this). police are supposed to be held at higher standards than general public right?

As for that disparity of disqualification for small crime and drug use vs. the lack of education. where do we draw a margin? example G.E.D. vs military, college, Job experience with a D.U.I in distant past and some drug use in distant past.

Also considering your graduate degree, what about the writings of August Vollmer? he seemed pretty intent on cops being college educated without exception. In my opinion for todays police military/associate degree is good minimum qualification. But one day i hope to see ROTC type education for police

[DZL]

Here's an off the wall thought...

Not eveyone with a college degree is a saint, good person, trustworthy, hell even intelligent... I know many many guys with college degrees that aren't worth a squirt of piss, cause they got a degree by simply putting in the time... It's not like you need to do alot to get one, except put in the time, do a minimal amount of studying to acheive a passing grade, and have the ability to pay for it...

I put in 2 years, and just could no longer afford to go, so I had to go to work at 20... As much as I would have liked to complete my schooling, it just wasn't possible at that time...

Frankly I think a degree for the most part is far over valued, at least when it comes to this profession... I'd much rather be working next to a guy with a GED, common sense and street smarts, over the nitwit that graduated college with a 2.0, and drank more beer than anything while in school...

[DeltaV]

I can agree that ex military and existing non degree holding officers will initially preform better but the police world is a changing one. more officers are required to do and know more things. Officers are now being required to respond to higher threats(not that it happens often) examples like hazmat, terrorism, more psychologically disturbed suspects.

And a college degree makes you qualified to handle higher threats in what way? Going to an 80 hour training course on crisis intervention teaches you more about the police response to mentally disturbed subjects than any college psychology courses ever will. Last time I checked, hazmat courses and certifications aren't taught in colleges. That's yet another professional development course to be taken after hiring. The same goes for any other type of specialized training, such as hostage negotiation, clandestine laboratory enforcement, or hazardous devices. To say that the only people who can successfully complete such training are those who are college educated is a completely asinine and baseless assumption.

The most difficult training courses I ever went through were the three traffic homicide/crash reconstruction courses (240 hours total). In order to perform the required calculations and draw scale diagrams you need to know physics, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and also have to understand a computerized CAD program. Do you need a degree for that? Nope. You need to be able to sit there and learn what the instructor teaches, as they break down the parts of physics, trig and calculus into what we need to know in order to do the work. Plenty of officers have been successful in such courses without having a degree in mathematics, physics, or mechanical engineering. You don't need to learn an entire field of study when you will only use one small piece of that field.

They also are being required to use more technology(biggest change has occurred in last 10 years, what's the next ten going to be like). Police in the future will be trained like psychologists, terrorist specialists, EMT, Technology majors and public education.

Again, you're overstating everything. I'll go through each of those things you mentioned in detail.

Police in the future will not be trained like psychologists. We aren't clinical psychologists and our job is not treatment of people with psychological problems. As I previously mentioned, our job is a very limited one in the INITIAL response for dealing with a disturbed individual. All you need to know for that initial response can be learned in several professional development courses that are widely available in this field. There's no need for us to have a psychology degree, as we don't use 90% of what is taught in psychology programs.

As to technology, all an officer needs to be able to do is to use the various pieces of equipment at their disposal. Again, this simply requires job-specific training. You don't need a computer science degree and all the classes that go along with programming, system analysis, and theory that encompass such a degree.

All the medical training you need is taught in the police academy. I also don't know what being an EMT has to do with having a college degree, as an EMT-B course is only about 120 hours and can be completed on its own without any other type of educational prerequisites.

When it comes to terrorism, you aren't going to learn anything in a college setting that you can get in advanced professional development training, as lots of the training classes that involve terrorism are closed to those outside government service because of security reasons.

In many ways the police are changing but it has father to go, with higher education being required across the board for american jobs...police are supposed to be held at higher standards than general public right?

The police are held to a higher standard, but that standard doesn't have anything to do with formal education. The standard has to do with what's morally required of an applicant and their background. There are background issues that would disqualify an applicant who has a law degree.

As for that disparity of disqualification for small crime and drug use vs. the lack of education. where do we draw a margin? example G.E.D. vs military, college, Job experience with a D.U.I in distant past and some drug use in distant past.

Standards are standards and should remain the same for everyone. They should not be relaxed for one person just because they have a degree.

Also considering your graduate degree, what about the writings of August Vollmer? he seemed pretty intent on cops being college educated without exception.

There are thousands of other police chiefs who obviously disagree with him. Considering he also founded and taught at a criminology school at a university, I think his opinions might be a bit biased. Additionally, what might work in Berkeley won't necessarily work everywhere else. Do not forget that Vollmer took the job as LAPD's chief but was basically run out of town in less than a year when he saw that what he did in Berkeley wasn't going to work in LA.

In my opinion for todays police military/associate degree is good minimum qualification.

And just how exactly do you base your opinion? What real-world professional experience do you have in this field where you have seen evidence that having a degree makes someone a better and more competent officer? As I said earlier, I've seen a lot of brand new applicants with those degrees fail out of our training program because they can't cut it. I also fail to see how any of the arguments you made about knowing topics like psychology, terrorism, or hazmat have anything to do with having a degree when you get all the training you need in professional development courses.

[titan115]

its very true having a degree does not increase ones morals, but it does broaden a persons learning/cognitive ability and general knowledge of the world. If we hold Officers to such high standards of being model citizens, shouldnt a model citizen have some sort of higher education.
this is for DZ

Delta, thanks for the good debate, im gonna take this one little by little.

[titan115]

And a college degree makes you qualified to handle higher threats in what way? Going to an 80 hour training course on crisis intervention teaches you more about the police response to mentally disturbed subjects than any college psychology courses ever will. Last time I checked, hazmat courses and certifications aren't taught in colleges. That's yet another professional development course to be taken after hiring. The same goes for any other type of specialized training, such as hostage negotiation, clandestine laboratory enforcement, or hazardous devices. To say that the only people who can successfully complete such training are those who are college educated is a completely asinine and baseless assumption.

The most difficult training courses I ever went through were the three traffic homicide/crash reconstruction courses (240 hours total). In order to perform the required calculations and draw scale diagrams you need to know physics, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and also have to understand a computerized CAD program. Do you need a degree for that? Nope. You need to be able to sit there and learn what the instructor teaches, as they break down the parts of physics, trig and calculus into what we need to know in order to do the work. Plenty of officers have been successful in such courses without having a degree in mathematics, physics, or mechanical engineering. You don't need to learn an entire field of study when you will only use one small piece of that field.

We can argue specifics when it comes to the outcome of college degrees. but lets take it to a higher level. Federal government will almost always require 4 year college and more. I Just took a look at FBI.gov ,they seem to be searching for engineers, chemists, mathematicians, computer science. Example, my father is a engineer, been in the business since the 70's, no formal college, he did a great job until the 90's when he was forced into community college because the trade changed.

I agree that college is not needed to be a great cop, not needed to be a hero. But it still lingers in my mind that most police academies are less than 6 months long, so more education is need for assistant manager at burger king(2 year degree). I don't remember taking many advanced math courses in high school. So high school grads are at a automatic struggle for Homicide/Crash investigations. There is a difference between getting by and being master of trade. Like a hazmat coarse, it may teach you to deal with a situation. but your ability is usually limited to what they specifically teach you. If someone had a chemistry degree(I suck at chemistry so bad) or just some higher theory education wouldnt they have better cognitive ability to deal with situations, like new technique or untaught hazmat class chemical reaction.

there's more just need time. Delta what do you think of president comment in thread five?

oh, and why do military officers require college(most of the time). Brand new Lt.'s have more power/responsibility than 20 year, battle tested sergeants.

[Citicop]

After reading many of the thread posts on this site concerning job qualifications and disqualifications. then on my own doing research of many individual departments. Its a changing as we speak, but huge amounts of police departments only require a G.E.D.. So it appears from my perspective that police departments are willing to take G.E.D. candidates but are apprehensive about much more qualified people with criminal history(non felony) and minor drug use.

Having a criminal history and "minor drug use" makes a candidate LESS qualified in my eyes, even with a degree.

Being a cop is about making choices on your own. Making bad choices in your life means that you will likely make bad choices after you get hired.

Some of the best cops I have met have HS only educations. Some of the worst have Postgraduate Degrees. Education, IMHO, is not the best indicator of how good a cop will be at his job.

Citicop.

[DZL]

its very true having a degree does not increase ones morals, but it does broaden a persons learning/cognitive ability and general knowledge of the world. If we hold Officers to such high standards of being model citizens, shouldnt a model citizen have some sort of higher education.
this is for DZ

You are making a large assumption that a college degree means one has broadened their learning/cognitive ability and general knowledge...

A college degree is not synonomous with being a model citizen...