G.e.d.

[Citicop]

Please tell me this opinion of college isn't a commonly-held belief in the police community.

College - for those who actually went - typically isn't a four year vacation. It's not useless theory. It's not four years of being pampered, sheltered, or babied.

Four years in the military is worthwhile. I'll say the same for the peace corps. But neither is in any way superior to a college degree, and nor is a college degree superior to military service or the peace corps. And as for "having a job and having to live life" - er, many (if not most) students have jobs, live life and manage to graduate in four years.

Perhaps at some elite private colleges, yeah, there's a bunch of kids who are there for a four year vacation. But for everyone else, college is hard work, long hours, and on top of that, many college students work full time in addition to hitting the books. And most college kids manage to "live life" too. I would place money on the fact that most college grads who are thinking about a police career have a solid amount of life experience on top of their education.

Seriously, do most cops have such a low opinion of higher education?

FYI-

I HAVE been to college. I don't have my degree yet, but I'm working on it. So, your implication that I must be bitter and just don't understand the value of higher education is incorrect.

You're right. Some people do work really hard at college. Like many things in life, you only really get out of it what you put into it. For everyone busting their butt and taking it seriously, there are one or two guys just coasting through to get a degree that could care less about the education.

When both students get out, guess what? They have the same degree.

I said in my previous post that higher education is important. There are a lot of benefits to be had by getting a degree. However, I have seen ZERO evidence in my time in Law Enforcement that the presence or absence of a degree has any correlation whatsoever with success in this field. On the street, a Bachelor's Degree has only limited usefulness.

Citicop.

[lpdhopeful]

When both students get out, guess what? They have the same degree.

No they don't.

The value of the degree isn't what's written on your diploma at the end of those four years. A person who ended up with a 2.3 GPA does not have the same degree as someone with a 3.5 GPA or above. That's like saying that a cop who has spent four years working some of the meanest streets in a large city has the same experience as a cop who drove around a small town drinking iced tea and who has never made an arrest.

It's very simple to see who took their studies seriously and who didn't. Transcripts. Even a quick glance at someone's GPA will give you a good idea of whether they've worked hard or whether they've slacked off.

Furthermore, not all colleges are equal. Someone who attended a top-ranked competitive college will often have a far superior education to someone who attended a poorly-funded state "commuter college" full of slackers. And it's common knowledge that a degree earned online or through distance learning has very little educational value beyond allowing someone to put a college degree on a resume.

Employers realize this. That's why grads from well-regarded four year colleges are in demand, while grads from less-rigorous colleges often struggle to find employment. That's why grads from semi-useless online schools are puzzled when they are constantly passed over in favor of people who attended a brick-and-mortar college for four years.

If you're attending college just to get a diploma and then forget everything you've ever learned, then yes, college is completely worthless. If you're attending college to improve your mind, then it's one of the most valuable investments in yourself and your career that you can make.

[manahmanah]

That's like saying that a cop who has spent four years working some of the meanest streets in a large city has the same experience as a cop who drove around a small town drinking iced tea and who has never made an arrest.

I'll have you know that the VAST MAJORITY of police officers are NOT big city cops, but small town or rural officers. We do MUCH more than big city cops. We handle our own cases from beginning to end. We don't have the luxury of taking a face sheet, initial statement, and turning it over to a detective for follow ups.

We don't have the luxury of having so many beat partners that when we need back up they're always there in under a minute, with a sufficient number of units to display a proper show of force and to control a crime scene.

I don't get to "drive around and drink iced tea" all day, and I average at least 2 arrests a night.

If you are going to bash small town cops, you had better remember you are on a law enforcement forum, and most of the officers on here are small town cops that have been to plenty more BBQ's than you have.

THE ABOVE RANT WAS NOT MEANT TO SHOW DISRESPECT MY BROTHERS IN LARGE CITY AGENCIES, BUT RATHER TO EDUCATE AN UNINFORMED TROLL THAT MORE THAN LIKELY...HAS A COLLEGE DEGREE.

[lpdhopeful]

I'll have you know that the VAST MAJORITY of police officers are NOT big city cops, but small town or rural officers. We do MUCH more than big city cops. We handle our own cases from beginning to end. We don't have the luxury of taking a face sheet, initial statement, and turning it over to a detective for follow ups.

We don't have the luxury of having so many beat partners that when we need back up they're always there in under a minute, with a sufficient number of units to display a proper show of force and to control a crime scene.

I don't get to "drive around and drink iced tea" all day, and I average at least 2 arrests a night.

If you are going to bash small town cops, you had better remember you are on a law enforcement forum, and most of the officers on here are small town cops that have been to plenty more BBQ's than you have.

THE ABOVE RANT WAS NOT MEANT TO SHOW DISRESPECT MY BROTHERS IN LARGE CITY AGENCIES, BUT RATHER TO EDUCATE AN UNINFORMED TROLL THAT MORE THAN LIKELY...HAS A COLLEGE DEGREE.

:rolleyes:

Perhaps you should read more carefully before flying off the handle.

I never stated that every small town cop drives around drinking iced tea all day, nor was my post a jab at small town cops.

I was using something called an "example", not a "stereotype", and is was created for the sole purpose of making a direct comparison in my post. You'll note, after a second read perhaps, that what I was stating is that just as the experience of the two pretend cops I wrote about can be vastly different, so can the abilities of two different college grads.

If I intended to write what you think I wrote, I'd have written something like the following: That's like saying that any cop who spends four years working some of the meanest streets in a large city has the same experience as one of those countless lazy cops who drive around every small town drinking iced tea and who have never made any arrests.

THE ABOVE RANT WAS NOT MEANT TO SHOW DISRESPECT TO ANY POLICE OFFICERS, BUT RATHER TO EDUCATE A COP WITH POOR VERBAL COMPREHENSION THAT MORE THAN LIKELY... DOES NOT HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE.

Right back at ya.

[Citicop]

Law Enforcement is not the private sector.

Grades matter here, but not to the degree that it matters in the private sector. Largely, in Law Enforcement, a degree is a check mark. You either have one, or you don't. The course of study, and to a lesser extent, the GPA don't matter they way they would in other industries.

You would have a hard time getting a job, for instance, in marketing, if you had a criminal justice degree. But a LE agency won't care if your degree is marketing, or history, or Criminal Justice, or Sculpting.

In Law Enforcement it doesn't matter if you went to Harvard or a State University, or a small community college. A degree is a degree in this field.

Citicop.

[Citicop]

"hopeful-"

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, and for someone who claims to want to get into the field, you seem awful quick to assume that the people IN THE FIELD who disagree with your views on higher education must not have any...

If you intend to join us in this career, maybe you should try not to come off as condecending to those already in it.

Just my $.02...

Citicop.

[lpdhopeful]

Perhaps at the lower end of the spectrum, but for anyone who is considering a career in law enforcement that will hopefully end up nearer the top end of the ranks than the bottom (and no disrespect to those who choose to stay on the streets for life), it's not just a check mark. Scrutiny of qualifications grows as one progresses higher and higher, whether it's the private or public sector. The country is full of low- and middle-managers who find their check-mark degrees have proven less than effective beyond that initial step up the ladder.

A "check mark" degree will get you only so far - typically to the point where you make the decision to stop actively learning. If your degree is not a stepping stone to a lifetime of self-driven intellectual curiosity, then it's truly a waste of time and money. At the higher levels of any organization, a healthy intellect is a valuable commodity.

Perhaps I'm a little quick to assume many cops have no degrees because (at least here) they tend to make crappy comments about those people who do have degrees. People do tend to mock and devalue what they don't personally have, and what they're often a little envious of.

Anyhoo, this is getting silly. I'm getting waaaay ahead of myself here - I need to focus on the basics and get my career underway before I start worrying about getting promoted.

Sorry for any offense caused, Citicop - you've been kind enough to provide me with helpful information in other threads, and for that I'm very grateful.

[Citicop]

I appreciate your honesty and your perspective, but I have to (again) disagree with you.

Getting promoted within a police department is not the same as in the private sector, either. There is usually a promotional process that is followed very carefully, due to civil service rules, or department policy.

Promotional processes look a lot like hiring processes. There may be a written test, oral board, one on one interview, etc.

On the list of things that are important in these processes (having witnessed them personally, and talked to many others in the field) some of the things you mention are low on the list, and some matter not at all.

The really important things are score on the written test (which may be aided by higher education), score on the oral board (again, a love of learning may help), performance reviews, and on the job know how.

After all of that is figured in (with a healthy dose of politics) they will look at level of post secondary education (a degree may be REQUIRED for the position, and then presence of Graduate level work may be helpful). After that, then GPA might be looked at. I am familiar with no cases where the school attended (provided it was properly accredited) made any difference at all in a promotional process.

I applaud your ambition, and your self assessment of needing to focus on the horse before the cart.

I'll say it again, there are many benefits to having an education in Law Enforcement. There are even benefits to having a degree in this field. But the reality of street level law enforcement is that it is out in the field. Having a sheepskin may help some, but it is by no means as important as the ability to make the right decision fast. You can't learn that in school.

If you want to be a police administrator someday, that's great. A good degree from a good school with a good GPA will be invaluable to you in that. But good administrators aren't necessarily great cops, and vice versa.

Does that make any sense?

Citicop.

[lpdhopeful]

Yup. Understood.

[camp4928]

That's obviously coming from someone who has never been in the military. The senior enlisted soldiers are the ones who really run squads and platoons. A brand new lieutenant who comes in with a know-it-all attitude and wants to tell an E7 how things should be done isn't going to last very long before he gets his *** handed to him.

The military requires degrees for officers simply because it's a way to quantify people and set a different standard from those who are enlisted. Also, a military officer is indeed a MANAGER, while an entry level police officer is not. During major conflicts that requirement has been lifted because the military knows that a college degree doesn't automatically make someone a good leader, while a field commission of someone who has already proven themselves does.

I second that. The Master Sergeant might call the 2Lt. "Sir,"" but that Lt usually knows his place... if he doesn't, then he's going to get a real eye opener sooner or later.

[camp4928]

The types of police are changing, police are being expected to be more worldly and affluent, something that you learn in college or the military.

"I wanted to see exotic [Iraq]... the crown jewel of South[west] Asia. I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture... and kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my block to get a confirmed kill!"

-Private Joker, Full Metal Jacket

[DeltaV]

Perhaps I'm a little quick to assume many cops have no degrees because (at least here) they tend to make crappy comments about those people who do have degrees. People do tend to mock and devalue what they don't personally have, and what they're often a little envious of.

We don't make crappy comments about those people who have degrees, we make crappy comments about the many college students who come onto this website and think that because they have or are obtaining a four year degree that they; a) are automatically qualified for any LEO job they want, and b) know more about the value of their degree than those who do the job every day.

I know when you're in college your professors inflate the value of a college degree. I know that many of them speak negatively about people without degrees, insinuating that they somehow aren't as capable or motivated as someone with a degree. What else would you expect from a class of people who, by and large, have been in academia their entire lives and never held a "real" job?

People with degrees are a dime a dozen. People with degrees in law enforcement are also a dime a dozen. There are much more important things than having that degree, both in the initial hiring process and the promotional process. As Citicop mentioned, most promotions are made off of civil service lists. Your score on that list is what matters, and a degree will usually get you the same amount of extra points as military service will.

As you move out of those civil service positions into upper level management (commanders, assistant chiefs, chiefs), then it becomes more politics than anything else. Upper level police administrators are more politicians than they are cops, and getting those positions has a lot more to do with who you know and what your reputation is than how you simply look on paper. Our current chief has only a bachelor's degree, yet one of the finalists for his position had a PhD. Why do you think the guy with the bachelor's degree got the job?

It's true that many departments require degrees for officers in management. Many others do not, and their managers are no less effective because they do not have degrees. There are plenty of administrative and command courses (such as the ones at the SPI or FBINA) that will teach the student more about managing a law enforcement agency than they will learn in any traditional college class.

I'm not saying degrees are bad, as I have a four year degree and am pursuing a graduate degree. Citicop is 100% correct though in stating that the degree is simply a "check mark" in this line of work, as there is very little that I have learned in my education that helps me much in the field. The many professional development training courses I've been to have been far more helpful than anything I ever learned in college.

[noelchabanel]

Seriously, do most cops have such a low opinion of higher education?

I think most people in general have a low opinion of "educated" people who are condescending--and I say that as person who has a formal education.

Does anyone else find it ironic is that the OP is on fire for higher education, but can't spell or write in complete sentences?