Taking advantage of a disadvantage

[intreker05]

Alright, I have a question, mainly directed at those of you working on police departments or that have been hired or done hiring.

I'm a 21 year old female who will be graduating with either a 3.7 or 3.8 from Indiana University with a double major in Criminal Justice and English in a year. I was corps commander of my high school JROTC as well as being drill team commander, special projects director, and community service leader, winning several national awards. I have no history of drug use, injuries, medical problems, or run ins with the law. I've volunteered at my local church for four years, working as Sunday school teacher and youth director and also have volunteered for two years at a local animal shelter when I'm at school. I'm physically fit, play soccer regularly, and can easily pass the PFT.

I feel like I have a lot of advantages, however, I have a fairly strong disadvantage. I'm only about 5'4" and weigh all of 120lbs. I have this sinking sensation that I will be underestimated. My goal is to apply to the Las Vegas Metro PD in December. I'm interested in working in narcotics, possibly trying to join SWAT as a sniper, and eventually becoming a member of the FBI or another federal agency. But I don't want to be discredited automatically because of my size and physical appearance.

I know I'm at a disadvantage by being female because departments only look for a certain number of females at a time. I've spent most of my life being one of the boys, though, playing soccer and hockey, I've studied martial arts, done full contact sparring with males twice my size and jiu-jitsu, learned joint locks and manipulation, and have always been able to hold my own.

So, my question is, is my size going to be a disadvantage? Are people going to look at a petite blonde and automatically dismiss me for being weak despite my athletic performance on the PFT? Will I be passed over if there's another female with similar qualifications who's larger than I am? And, how can I take advantage of my size, which may potentially work against me?

I know this is long, and drawn out, but it's really one of my only fears, and the only thing I can't control, about my application process. So any insight would be appreciated.

[smcc360]

Two things:

-I broke your post up into paragraphs, because it's a good question and I'd hate for people not to see it because the post was difficult to read.

-I've been trained to do pre-hire panel interviews for a federal LE agency. We have a list of what can and can't be used to disqualify an applicant.

If I tried to DQ an applicant for no other reason than that she was a female of average height and weight, I would quite quickly be replaced on those panels. It's just not an item of consideration.

I wouldn't worry about it at all. Good luck.

[Samuel]

This topic comes around on a regular basis. I'm usually slightly against the grain on this - IMO, in short, better to have it and not need it than the other way around. There is a lot you can do to help compensate for being of smaller stature/lesser physical strength but nothing is 100%. That being said, you need to check the requirements for the department(s) you're interested in.

One thing I would caution you about is your apparent overconfidence in your fighting ability. If you have "always been able to hold your own", especially against guys 2x your size, that tells me (IMO) that your training hasn't been realistic enough, you haven't trained with enough of a variety of people, and/or those guys you went against were just large couch potatoes.

[intreker05]

Ha, I expected something like that. Again, you underestimate me automatically. That's fine with me, most people do, and that's what gives me the edge. But I've studied martial arts since I was seven, I fight with my brain, not just my hands. I am confident in my ability to fight, but not overconfident. I've fought in controlled situations. So yes, I've been hit, but never had my nose broken or similar damage. So far, I've always been able to hold my own, simple fact. I plan on continuing being confident because one of the worst things I can do on the street is to be afraid and doubt my abilities, because then I've automatically lost. Do I think I can survive most street fights? Yes, but I know I'll come out of them a little the worse for wear. I'm simply saying that even though I'm small, I'm scrappy and not afraid of pain and I don't give up when the going gets tough, even in a fight and I consider that an advantage despite my size.

Thanks for the advice, and sorry about the paragraphs. I'll work on that.

[Jennifer]

I don't understand why females think they will not get hired because of their size/strength etc? In my martial arts class we have one female who is very petite and she is a police officer. Another girl just got accepted into the state police academy.
I keep getting told to take tests but I need to finish school first.
Believe me, size is not the only thing that matters, in fact I see it as an advantage.

I've fought in controlled situations. So yes, I've been hit, but never had my nose broken or similar damage.

It sounds like you can take it. Heehee, I have gotten punched in the nose not once, not twice, but THREE times (and they were right after each other, didn't learn from my mistakes!!)

Do I think I can survive most street fights?...I know I'll come out of them a little the worse for wear. I'm simply saying that even though I'm small, I'm scrappy and not afraid of pain and I don't give up when the going gets tough, even in a fight and I consider that an advantage despite my size.

No one here can answer this for you. Besides you answered your own question!! Its about your attitude and confidence in yourself. You have to be confidant but not cocky. For me, yea, I can talk a good game about being able to defend myself if I had to and believe me, if I were to get attacked or in a fight, its going down. I have no qualms about playing dirty and fighting for my life! However, I also know that I am not Wonder Woman and one hit to the head and I'm done.

[Hockey9019]

I know a girl that is 5'2" and 110lbs or so that can open a serious can of whoop on me. Before she went to the academy, she was a girly girl who wouldn't hurt a fly.

Just gotta know how to use what you have for an advantage. Its all about leverage ;)

And when that doesn't work, out comes 50,000 volts of leverage.

Seriously though, just be confident in yourself. If you're confident and not worried about your height or anything, they won't even notice it. If your not, people (hiring board etc) will see right through that.

Good luck

[Jennifer]

One thing I would caution you about is your apparent overconfidence in your fighting ability. If you have "always been able to hold your own", especially against guys 2x your size, that tells me (IMO) that your training hasn't been realistic enough, you haven't trained with enough of a variety of people, and/or those guys you went against were just large couch potatoes.

True, this is what I meant with my comment about Wonder Women. I think that people who train start to feel invincible but they will still get cut with a knife.

[intreker05]

I don't understand why females think they will not get hired because of their size/strength etc?

It's because it's a male-dominated field. There's not a police department out there that has more females than men, or even close. My local department has one female on it out of about thirty officers. A lot of the people doing the hiring in the department I go to may be men who might be likely to hire men because of bias they have about women in the department. I know they have a quota of women they have to hire, at least some departments do, but they won't be likely to surpass that. I just want to make sure I won't be at a disadvantage when I walk in there and come shoulder high to every other person in the room. Just trying to calm the nerves and this is the only real fear I have about applying.

[Roger Dat]

Stay confident but not overconfidence. Cocky ness will get you killed. I'm sure you will see a film in the acadey (everyone I have talked to has) where a large southern trooper stops a car full of 3 mexicans, refuses backup from a local officer and eventually loses a struggle for his gun and his life.

I am a short guy at only 5'4" however I remain vigilant in going to the gym 4 times a week and I try to always keep myself in a tactically sound position. I have always been fairly confident in my fighting abiliity as I have a black belt. However I find that there is ALWAYS room to improve and the is always something else out there to learn.

[Jennifer]

It's because it's a male-dominated field. There's not a police department out there that has more females than men, or even close. My local department has one female on it out of about thirty officers. A lot of the people doing the hiring in the department I go to may be men who might be likely to hire men because of bias they have about women in the department. I know they have a quota of women they have to hire, at least some departments do, but they won't be likely to surpass that. I just want to make sure I won't be at a disadvantage when I walk in there and come shoulder high to every other person in the room. Just trying to calm the nerves and this is the only real fear I have about applying.

I guess there is not much you can do about people's own prejudices but if you are a good applicant then you have just as much a chance as the next guy (no pun intended!).


Good luck!

[Norm357]

The OP said:

I know I'm at a disadvantage by being female

*cough*

Bull****

*cough*

Being a female is only a disadvantage is you allow it to be.

[Samuel]

Ha, I expected something like that. Again, you underestimate me automatically. That's fine with me, most people do, and that's what gives me the edge. But I've studied martial arts since I was seven, I fight with my brain, not just my hands. I am confident in my ability to fight, but not overconfident. I've fought in controlled situations. So yes, I've been hit, but never had my nose broken or similar damage. So far, I've always been able to hold my own, simple fact. I plan on continuing being confident because one of the worst things I can do on the street is to be afraid and doubt my abilities, because then I've automatically lost. Do I think I can survive most street fights? Yes, but I know I'll come out of them a little the worse for wear. I'm simply saying that even though I'm small, I'm scrappy and not afraid of pain and I don't give up when the going gets tough, even in a fight and I consider that an advantage despite my size.

Thanks for the advice, and sorry about the paragraphs. I'll work on that.

How did I know that you were going to reply like that? :rolleyes: Let's step back - in NO way am I putting you down, picking on you because you're female, or suggesting you've got no chance because you're of smaller stature.

It's important to have confidence/command presence for this job. Sounds like you have that. It's nice to have fighting skills/techniques. Sounds like you have some. It's crucial to have heart/the will to win. Sounds like you have that. That's all good.

I'm 5'10"/210 right now. I've been training (on/off) in all sorts of different stuff for about as long as you've been alive. In training, I've had my *** handed to my PLENTY of times - I've NOT been able to "hold my own" PLENTY of times. Guess what? I don't have an ego when it comes to DT/MA training and I have no problem admitting that there are MANY people much better than me - at some places or with certain partners, I'm getting worked over EVERY round or Every few minutes! Even the best in the world have "lost" before (i.e. have not been able to "hold their own" on a given night).

So when someone comes around here or IRL and tells me that they've "Always been able to hold their own" (i.e. they've never lost), especially against opponents twice his/her size, I just shake my head and laugh. One day, you'll have your eyes opened for you - hopefully it will be during training and not IRL...

[intreker05]

The OP said:



*cough*

Bull****

*cough*

Being a female is only a disadvantage is you allow it to be.

Sorry, but I'm coming from a military background after years in ROTC where I'm having an administration tell me I can't do certain jobs simply because of my sex, so I guess in that world, being female is a disadvantage. I wasn't sure if it was similar in law enforcement or not.

How did I know that you were going to reply like that? Let's step back - in NO way am I putting you down, picking on you because you're female, or suggesting you've got no chance because you're of smaller stature.

It's important to have confidence/command presence for this job. Sounds like you have that. It's nice to have fighting skills/techniques. Sounds like you have some. It's crucial to have heart/the will to win. Sounds like you have that. That's all good.

I'm 5'10"/210 right now. I've been training (on/off) in all sorts of different stuff for about as long as you've been alive. In training, I've had my *** handed to my PLENTY of times - I've NOT been able to "hold my own" PLENTY of times. Guess what? I don't have an ego when it comes to DT/MA training and I have no problem admitting that there are MANY people much better than me - at some places or with certain partners, I'm getting worked over EVERY round or Every few minutes! Even the best in the world have "lost" before (i.e. have not been able to "hold their own" on a given night).

So when someone comes around here or IRL and tells me that they've "Always been able to hold their own" (i.e. they've never lost), especially against opponents twice his/her size, I just shake my head and laugh. One day, you'll have your eyes opened for you - hopefully it will be during training and not IRL...

Hey, I've lost, I never said I hadn't. I've left the dojo with bruises and scrapes and a hell of a lot of rug burn, but I feel like I can survive most situations. Ten guys with guns and knives, no, of course not, but if someone, a single someone, jumps at me, I feel like I can take care of myself and while I might get scraped, beaten, and broken, I feel like I have the skills to at least crawl away from the situation with my life. That being said, I'm a student for life, I know I can always be better. I strive for perfection even though it is the unattainable goal because then I'm always improving. To me, in fighting, being able to hold your own means you got away from the fight with your heart still beating instead of in a body bag, so I may have a different interpretation of what that means than you do.

[DeltaV]

Samuel is 100% correct. First, what do you consider "holding your own?" If that means that you've won every MA competition or sparring match you've been in, I'll say that you're either lying or that you've not had halfway decent opposition. I'm not trying to put you down, but in years of training off and on in MA, I've NEVER met someone who wins every time. II've NEVER met someone who trained in BJJ and never had to tap out.

If by "holding your own" you mean something else, then it's meaningless in a street fight when there are no rules and all bets are off. In addition to the added stress during a street fight that you don't have in a controlled environment, you're fighting against people who will do anything to you in order for them to win. You've said you've been hit but you've never had to fight with broken bones or serious injuries. How do you know what you'll be able to do in such a situation then?

We have a male officer on my department who is under five feet tall. He's proficient in DT and is also ready and willing to throw down when the need arises, however he still knows his limitations and isn't going to put himself into risky situations recklessly in order to show everyone that he can fight too. Knowing your limitations is the important thing. Being a female isn't a disadvantage by any stretch of the imagination as long as you don't develop the mindset that you have something to prove.

For some reason it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with smaller males, but I've seen numerous small females come through training with an attitude that they have something to prove physically and want to show everyone how good of a fighter they are. Every one of them eventually has ended up on the losing end of a fight, many times requiring a trip to the hospital. It's the attitude that put them in that position, not their physical limitations. It's when you don't think that you have any limitations that you're dangerous.

Standards are there for a reason. There are physical fitness standards in the hiring process and defensive tactics standards in the academy. If you can pass those then you're seen to be acceptable for doing the job on the street. If you get into your first street fight and freeze up that's a different story (and it happens with all types of people no matter how well they do in training), but it doesn't have anything to do with being male or female. Nobody is going to look down on you as long as you can pass the tests.

[Jennifer]

For some reason it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with smaller males, but I've seen numerous small females come through training with an attitude that they have something to prove physically and want to show everyone how good of a fighter they are. Every one of them eventually has ended up on the losing end of a fight, many times requiring a trip to the hospital. It's the attitude that put them in that position, not their physical limitations. It's when you don't think that you have any limitations that you're dangerous.

Hmmmmm.....I don't see this at my school in fact the new guys are the ones that want to show off! The few girls in the guys class tend to be shy!

Aside from any Napoleon Complexes, I would think that the reason females may need to "prove" themselves may be related to the fact that they assume that men are not going to take them seriously, much as what intreker05 suggested with her posts. In my KT class, the guys don't like to go all out on me and that's frustrating because I feel as though they and myself are not training to our potential. I get, "you're a girl and I don't want to hurt you." Of course my instructor has slammed me to the ground on many occasions!

And the best defense is a good offense, I truly believe that prevention is key.