The "Sticky's"

[BLuDKLoT]

I just joined the site today and immediately began to read all the sticky's. I must say, I am really impressed with the integrity you guys display. I also appreciate all the advice you take the time to provide for guys like me...Uncertain and conflicted.

I have been a Marine for 13 years and my career is about to end, involuntarily I might add, but as well as honorably. (Medical) I am 38 years old and when I was 14-20 y/o I experimented with drugs, have been arrested, dropped out of High School (possess an actual HS diploma now, but it took 2 years of night school, while working full-time, from the ages of 23-25 to complete, just so I could join the Marines!) I joined the Marines to balance out the good, and/or to personally try and redeem myself and it was a great decision. It literally made me become the man I am today. I hoped to smother out the bad and redemption was my mission. I do in fact possess tremendous integrity as a result of my service, but it will never make up for the poor decisions I made as an early teen, and why should it matter now?

Every time my contract was up, I would begin the hiring process to become a cop, but every time I did, I elected to reenlist instead. Usually after the written and agility phases, because I was never certain if I had done enough to guarantee my place amongst the LE community. It drove me NUTS!

Well...then, as well as now, I find myself in this same situation again, but now I don't have the Marines as my safety net, it's make it or break it. I have been given conflicting advice from cops I know, Recruiters and others in various LE positions and what I get from some of these people is, "They will not know, what you do not tell them" Example: How many times have I really smoked weed?

I have also had those who tell me to be as truthful as possible and let the cards fall where they may, because what may be considered excessive for one, may not be for the other. This advice made it really hard on me back then and is still echoing in my head now. I wasn't sure of myself and I was concerned that I did not possess the merit on just truth alone. Self-preservation also interjected itself into my brain housing group and said, "yeah...How will they really know?"
Poly? Self-admittal? Who knows. All I knew is that I may have done things then, that may be an instant DQ now, but why should I be denied my dream?
Knowing myself as well as I do, I know I am a completely different person. I would never make the choices I did as a teen, now as a Marine. I am nothing like he was. Why should I lose out to the guy who never did *_______*? How do I know he isn't hiding anything? Why not let my memory recollection be slightly jaded in my favor, lending itself to the possibility of a better chance for me?

Well I still wrestle with this. I know that I am deserving enough, trusting enough, loyal enough, dedicated enough, willing to sacrifice as much, do as much and quite possibly be better than most of these people I am going to be competing against. I know that I would be a great cop...I know it for a fact...But will "they" see it?

Here is where I catch myself...Thanks.

Could I live with myself and go to work everyday, policing the streets of my "beat" looking for the person I used to be knowing that I cheated my way into my new dream career? Could I really consider myself an equal to the people I serve with, knowing that I hit my Home Run with a corked bat?
Could I really sit on the Witness Stand and testify under oath, against someone I arrested, who is on trail for Criminal Trespass, a crime that I was arrested for as a teen, but elected not to divulge when I should have? (and still managed to slip on through) Just sweating bullets...hoping and praying that the Defendants Defense Counsel isn't savvy enough to investigate my past and find my dirty little secret for all to discover? Could I live with the results of what might happen as a result of my deception? The outcome of the arrest? The impact on my department, colleagues, and fellow officers?

I want to be a cop more than I will ever be able to express in words. I want to be hired for who I am now and for how I have lived my life since. Honesty, truth and integrity are all one in the same. To me...All might as well define the word cop. How can I make "them" see that this is the new me?

I may never get to join your ranks. I definitely don't feel reassured after reading the sticky's, but if I had not come across this site, who knows what might have happened.

Thanks for the BZO (Battle Sight Zero)

Respectfully,

Scott
-aka-
BLuDKLoT

[CelicaGuy]

NEVER LIE!!!!! If you lie during the process and they find out YOU and SCREW'd. If you are even thinking about lying during the process this is not the career for you. Be honest, and upfront about EVERYTHING.

[JakeLock]

Well 'Neck', there's really only one way to find out right? You have to try.

I've gotten to the point now where I won't even say yes or no to these type of questions. Some are obvious some aren't. While I don't really see anything to obvious, who knows.

You need to take it upon yourself, apply, get through all the testing and be totally honest with the BI and then see what happens.

If you make it, great. If you don't, well you tried and that's all that can be asked of you.

Edit: I re-read your post, your thoughts about even attempting to hide anything really worries me, and makes me question you. Someone who wants to do this job for the right reasons wouldn't even think twice about telling the truth.

[MP_Steve]

All you can do is try. At least you have military service under your belt. Most people comming on here under the same circumstances don't even have that.

I hope things work out for you. Good luck.

[GoDirectly2Jail]

Your post is a refreshingly honest one from an applicant's perspective. I wanted to let you know that I (at least) appreciate it. I think everyone can relate to a moment of "do I tell the full truth" at some point in their life, even if it was in their youth.

If I may offer some advice: Be COMPLETELY honest concerning your application and statements to the investigators and let the chips fall where they may. You don't mention what you may have done that you consider would be an auto-dq, but in my experience there is someone, somewhere that knows about it. People don't do things in a vacuum, and our actions have repercussions.

If you withhold something, you're right - you may get hired... for now.

It might be right away or it might be years down the road, but your past WILL catch up with you. When that day comes, if you lied about it to get hired, they WILL fire you, if the lie is bad enough to betray the public trust, you may be profiled as a news story, and perhaps prosecuted and jailed. Every case you close as an officer, and every arrest you make in your career will be under scrutiny, and you will be a pariah at best.

Is it worth it?

[BLuDKLoT]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the many replies to my 1st post. I just want to clarify something. In the PAST withholding certain information that was impossible to prove, unless I just flat out admitted to it, is the only information that I was considering to keep low key initially.

This was because I had COPS giving me this advice! Sheriff Mike Corona told me do reduce the number of times I smoked Pot by 3/4 during a breakfast we were invited to with 100's of Cops, and 5 Marine Recruiters. We talked for a while, the question arose and that was his answer. But every time I went into a written test, for any PD, the speech the Proctors would give about the BI and other stuff to expect during the process, freaked me out because it was a very stern "WE WILL FIND OUT EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU, DON'T EVEN DARE THINK ABOUT LYING", it freaked me out and made me drop from the hiring process all 3 times I tried, only because I was conflicted and uncertain about my chances because I WAS going to be honest and didn't want to lose the Marine gig while waiting to find out if I would get hired.

I think that there might be a little bit of misunderstanding in the reading of my post, if there is, I apologize if it seems disingenuous or contrary at some times.

I tried to tell my story in a way where in the beginning I was really tempted to maybe say I smoked pot 5 times as apposed to 50, etc.. but I thought I clearly tied it together in the last paragraph, or last few sentences for sure on how this was a disgusting and very immoral way of pursuing and beginning such a prestigious and honorable career.

The "Thanks for the BZO" references that I made at the end, that was a thank you, to ALL OF YOU, who have made contributions to this site. It was while reading your sticky posts that I finally believed enough in myself to lay it all out on the line, and if it is meant to be, it will be. "BZO" in Jarhead is getting rounds on target, straight and true...I thought most of you would see and understand that analogy for sure....lol

Read my story again, It was meant to show support for nothing but the truth and possessing true integrity. I never let myself go far enough in the process to even have the temptation to lie. Visiting here just reinforced my "gut" feeling to not withhold any information because it's just not the right way to start off pursuing a career as an officer.

It bothers me that you see something in my words that I tried to completely steer away from in the end. I guess a career as an Author is out of the question as well. So there we go...Now I feel less assured about 2 potential careers. Gee thanks!

As for my missteps as an early teen and young adult:

Criminal Trespass x 2 (Being in a park after closing, night fishing, private lake)

4 Curfew Violations

Residential Burglary (but it was just simply going into a buddies house when he wasn't home to hang out, 4 of us smoked some Pot and we stole some cookies from their cabinet. Another kid stole a gold chain from him and his dad was really mad so he pressed charges and I received 2 years probation. In 2001 I petitioned the Court to expunge the record and they did. It is literally gone now. I hired a PI to do a minor BI on me, and he found only the police reports of these things with the agency involved, but nothing relating to Felonies, MM's, or Court Dockets. so I don't even know what it was classified as. I was 14 at the time, 38 now. Might have been a Felony, I just don't know. I have bought many weapons as an adult, never been denied.)

Used Marijuana allot. Close to 100 times, all before my 20's

Cocaine 3 times (15 to 17 y/o)

Minor Consumption Ticket (20 y/o)

Parking in Handicapped Ticket (My right wheels were just inside the blue lines about 2 feet because the whole row was parked crooked and offset, and I got a ticket! I was pissed. It was in my Gov't car while I served as a Recruiter, right in front of my office)

2 Speeding Tickets, both in my 05 Vette, CHP was totally cool and went from 3 digit, to 2 digit both times. Woohoo! (Traffic Skool, never posted)

Following to close Ticket (While on my GSX-R 750, Traffic Skool)

NJP in Marines for fighting when I was a PFC. (never effected career, even though K-Bars were involved and I cut 2 Marines. Both were my roommates, and best buds, lol. One is a cop now in NM and is willing to say it was unintentional, because it was. I had the knife, they got cut while reaching for it, while we were all drunk and fighting...Very dumb, I know)

That is everything, other than some medical issues from being injured while serving in the Corps and is why I am being separated. I am healed from them now, but I just can't pass a fitness test because too much time went by spent recovering from 3 different injuries and I haven't been given enough time to properly prepare for the tests. I just finally healed in December and almost right after this I am given 2 fitness tests, in 2 months, after 2 years of no fitness training at all. I failed them both and now I am getting booted for those injuries because my command still thinks its the injuries and not my Physical Conditioning that is the issue...RETARDS! (I failed the running portion only) Give me a break, 2 years no running, need time for PT! If they don't want me, I surely don't want them, thus not fighting to retain or stay in. I'm over it...moving on. Life is too short for that kinda crap.

Hypertension / High Blood Pressure

OK - That is all...So do I have an ice cubes chance in hell of being hired anywhere? LAPD maybe?

Go read my last few sentences. Now they will make sense to you, but you need to have read the sticky posts as well, lol.

Thanks guys, I feel better now for some reason.

Blud

[mcsap]

If you were 22 , I would say you are SCREWED. At age 38 , with the passage of a lot of years, your military service etc. you may have a shot.

I am concerned about your current/past med history and whether or not you can pass the current physical agility test.

Lay your cards on the table and give it your best shot.

[JakeLock]

The whole knife ordeal is a little frightening, but you may be able to explain that away. The drug use I think may be a hurdle, but not impossible.

The one thing I see as being your biggest problem really is the hypertension and high blood pressure. This job can be extremely stressful, and already being diagnosed may cause some problems with the dept docs.

I'm not trying to discourage you, don't see it that way, because you'll never know unless you try and keep trying.

[BLuDKLoT]

Trust me, the knife thing wasn't all my fault. I had it, but the 2 who were cut, got cut while going after the knife and basically cut themselves. It was 3 drunk Marines being really dumb. Like I said, ones a cop now and is still a good buddy. He will vouch for me.

As for the High Blood Pressure, I was concerned about that as well. I thought it might be an automatic DQ, but I wasn't sure. It is what it is. If it's controlled by med's then I don't see why it should be an issue.

As for my overall fitness. Well, before I attempted the hiring process, I would ensure I am fit and more than competitive. I wouldn't even try if I wasn't.

Thanks for the replies,

Blud

[Level1Grad]

BLudKLoT,
I started a pretty healthy response and then when I went to get a link to something for you, I navigated away. It may get posted it may not. But let me sum it up.

My background is similar in that I have 6 years military with an honorable, "I know that I would be a great cop...I know it for a fact..." as you said..., and I have moved on from immature days. I also have a sludge of stuff, none of which are automatic DQ's.

However, the "totality" of circumstance is the very disheartening part to contend with. (Get familiar with the term, your going to hear it a lot!). I don't have anywhere near the drug past, the only arrest I have involves DUI's, and my fight in the military didn't involve a knife. However, what I do have, that you don't, is that I put myself through an 18 month nights & weekends academy hell while working a full time job with oncall rotation. I graduated #1 Academic. I did that to demonstrate to BI's that I am motivated and beyond my immature days. So let me tell you what it got me. After being absolutely honest and upfront about my issues to about 40 agencies and explaining I didn't want to waste their time or mine, and them all stating they would give me a good look with my academy and all, for Reserve and full time applications; it got me 40 passed written exams, 35 passed oral boards, 34 passed PT's, 5 passed poly's and voice stress tests (that is all that was administered), and 34 frickin letters stating "Thanks for applying but..."

So now let me tell you the real world. What you tell one BI is and will be known to all BI's!. California has this tightnit background community/brain washing institute and they train BI's to believe that once a dirt bag always a dirt bag. What they are looking for are candidates with absolutely nothing in their background and no experience or growth. What they get is training on how to avoid being sued by those who have grown and made mistakes. Even when your absolutely honest with them about everything, in the end, all you will get is a letter. The days of Officer's discretion, being reasonable about teen play, and following up to find out what happend with such and such are way over. The Brady bill took care of that! So keeping this in mind, consider the following, which is strictly my advice. Generally speaking, you are selling a package of who you are today. You are a person with police and other reports about things that happened in your history. You also have a chain of connect the dots that any good investigator can connect. DO NOT LIE! For anything serious or with an available report, divulge it. For anything that is a "TYPICAL" teenage type of prank with no report or witness, consider that they know it is a typical thing and as long as there is no report or no person going to vouch against it, consider it from different time and person. If you have already told a BI about it now, you will have to report it for any background in the future. Now for some info you may or may not know.

In the state of California (since you mentioned CHP) misdemeanor's can be expunged under 1203.4 PC. HOWEVER... For all state offices, you must divuldge any arrest. My advice? Divuldge any arrest, make sure your explination matches that on the police report but do not state anything more then what is on the police report and that it was expunged. Show it was due to your immaturity at the time but not any lack of Moral/Ethical Behavior. It is part of #1 Dimension -"Integrity", along with honesty...

After your honorable discharge, all NJP's are pulled from your service record and destroyed. If it is just a fight or a disturbing the peace, there is no need to divulge this... Unless there was something like an "assault with a deadly...". Then, obviously...divulge it to the extent of what is on the report.

When the PHS asks have you ever used drugs, tell the truth. When it asks how much, estimate what any normal person would consider normal experimentation...Unless there is something or someone somwhere...anywhere that will be able to recall specifics. In that case, obviously match what that person or report will state.

In California, I thought the use of any narcotic (including Cocaine) was an automatic DQ? Can any other real police officers verify this for me? I can say this, try the following links. They are good reading if your in California:...well I tried to post the URL's but apparently I am 14 posts shy of the 15 to do it so I have to do this covertly... remove the spaces from the next two lines to get two URL's.
post. ca. gov/ Hiring/ Peace_Officers/
post. ca. gov/ selection/ bim/ bi.pdf

As for any of the citations (curfew, moving or non-moving traffic), only reveal what the PHS requests. typically 5 years back. May I suggest that if any of them are within 5 years, wait a year or two for them to clear.

As for the Physical, get your butt out on a track or a treadmill, get the blood pressure down, reduce the hypertension and then go to an independant civilian doctor to test you again. Present it when you do your back ground interview with the investigator. Not before! If you present it when the HR sees it before the BI's, it is a problem for the city/county/state before your even considered.

As for that which you don't divulge. Understand that failing to reveal is still a lie. Most places rely on a poly. May I suggest some online research about polygraphs?

Now for the kicker. You are making the same mistake I made. You are making too much out of your back ground. You are drawing all the attention to your issues. And your doing it with the right intentions but very subtly. You are trying to explain everything and make excuses before the background Personal History Statement is even in front of your eyes. You are quick to note that this wasn't my fault, or that your tires were two feet this way, or that some one will vouch for you, or that your not sure you can be on the street looking for..., or what about the officers that have things in their back grounds and still got hired, or better yet, I loved the part where you had 13 years of a steady income, a bortherhood, and now they are retards.

Look, if you want to be a police officer, you need to start acting like a police officer. A police officer goes out there doing the best they can, with best of convictions, and works the problem. We all have a past and to be a LEO you have to sell them a bill of goods. Are your goods spoiled or not? Sell them the goods and stop worrying about what could be spoiled if not picked up. Here is my real personal experience I want to share. Even if you don't get picked up, have the intestinal foretitude to move on smartly.

[SnapShawt]

When the PHS asks have you ever used drugs, tell the truth. When it asks how much, estimate what any normal person would consider normal experimentation...Unless there is something or someone somwhere...anywhere that will be able to recall specifics. In that case, obviously match what that person or report will state.

This sounds dangerously like you are advising this person to be less than honest. Actually it doesn't sound like it, that's exactly what it is. You advised him to reveal only what would be expected to be normal experimentation, and that if he has anything beyond that only to disclose it if someone else will recall something that will contradict his dishonesty.

When dispensing advice, please don't people to lie unless they think they'll get caught by a BI who finds someone who knows more to the story than was disclosed.

Be honest - COMPLETELY honest - at all times, whether you think you'll "get caught" or not. Period.

[Level1Grad]

[QUOTE=SnapShawt;905588]This sounds dangerously like you are advising this person to be less than honest. Actually it doesn't sound like it, that's exactly what it is. You advised him to reveal only what would be expected to be normal experimentation, and that if he has anything beyond that only to disclose it if someone else will recall something that will contradict his dishonesty.QUOTE]

SnapShawt,
Thanks for the rebuttle. It fufilled my premonition. Couple of things though.

I told the complete truth about everything 34 different times and all I got back was a letter stating "Thanks but...". The day a department wants to be upfront and honest with me about why is the day I will change my opinion on this issue.

With regards to me "actually advising" the person to be less then honest, may I suggest you go back and reread the paragraph? Thinking about how many times vs. estimating what would be considered normal unless someone can recall for him; I agree with you, they are in fact 2 different things. However neither are lieing. I did not tell him to be less then truthful. It is just a different approach to the thought process. I did it your way. After 34 times applying, if I were to do it again and after talking to some friends that made it, I would do it differently.

Now, if you would like to really help out, perhaps you can get one of the 34 agencies to tell me why I didn't pass even though not one found anything new in my background that I didn't reveal up front. PM me if you would like to be my helpful friend. Thanks,

[Taz_bb2]

... DO NOT LIE! For anything serious or with an available report, divulge it. For anything that is a "TYPICAL" teenage type of prank with no report or witness, consider that they know it is a typical thing and as long as there is no report or no person going to vouch against it, consider it from different time and person. If you have already told a BI about it now, you will have to report it for any background in the future. Now for some info you may or may not know.

When the PHS asks have you ever used drugs, tell the truth. When it asks how much, estimate what any normal person would consider normal experimentation...Unless there is something or someone somwhere...anywhere that will be able to recall specifics. In that case, obviously match what that person or report will state.

I would suspect the reason that you can't get past the poly with at least 5 agencies and have been told "no" by 34 agencies is the fact that not only are you dishonest, you are a hypocrite.

In your post above, you blatantly tell the OP to make up his drug use using normal experimentation guidelines...unless that is, he remembers that he was truthful on another application and to make sure that his information matches. Spin it any way you want...

However neither are lying. I did not tell him to be less then truthful. It is just a different approach to the thought process.

but that is telling him to lie from the get go. I don't care if you did graduate from the "Bill Clinton School of Rationalization", I don't want a liar backing me up on any call, so to the OP....you can be 100% truthful and possibly get hired, or you can wind up like Level1Grad here...a wanna be because he didn't have the integrity to be truthful in a field that DEMANDS it.

[InTheEnd]

I must say, I am really impressed with the integrity you guys display.

You got to be honest with the agency you apply to. One agency will collect info from other agencies you applied to match up your answers and see what they got on you. Be honest with each agency you apply to and keep your answers the same for all of them. Don't withhold info from any agency either. Drug use you can say you were brought up in an environment where it was around and you found x addictive and estimate times of use and period of time used and experimented with y. Talk to a doctor on ways to lower your blood pressure without meds. Be honest. Your military service holds a lot of weight.

[Level1Grad]

I would suspect the reason that you can't get past the poly with at least 5 agencies

Taz, May I suggest rereading my post while keeping in mind "pay attention to detail"? When some one writes something like "...5 passed polys and voice stres..." generically speaking that means they got past those events without lying... At least in my "Bill Clinton school or Rationalization".

"...not only are you dishonest, you are a hypocrite. "...a wanna be because he didn't have the integrity to be truthful in a field that DEMANDS it."

Dang Taz, you sure like to quickly judge someone when you haven't even met them. I thought this site was suppose to be about people with morales and integrity. Not about slinging accusations without knowing the facts? It is a good thing I don't have to choose to back you up. You might just hear my radio clicks with an attitude like that.