'Safest' home defense gun?

[Attila Rex]

Hi guys,

First thing I am only knowledgeable enough about guns to safely use and maintain them. Beyond that I'm a bit uneducated. I've recently been approached with a question about home defense. I just researched all over this site and others and came up with a TON of opinions on what the ultimate home defense gun would be (usually a 12g shotgun with 9mm pistol backup.) But not only was this not what I was looking for, all the opinions were from people who have never actually had to deal with a home invasion. Basically they just wanted whatever would put the biggest hole in somebody. I figured ask the people who see the aftermath of home invasions, good and bad scenarios.

My mother started asking me the other day what gun she should get for home defense. She is going to take a safety class but wants something that is 'safe' around the house. When she was little her brother got a hold of his dad's 9mm and accidentally killed himself, so she's a bit paranoid (understandably.) Obviously all guns are deadly and should be locked up but she wants something that has the least chance of killing a family member in a worst case scenario.

Example desired criteria:
-Doesn't make it through walls.
-Likely to live if shot in non-vital area.
-Loud enough to scare someone away without actually hitting them.

My first thought was a tiny .22 pistol with a chambered blank. That way the first shot is loud but has absolutely no chance of hitting anyone (by purpose or accident) yet it still has 5-6 real sots behind it. The only problem is I heard that a .22 MIGHT be deadlier than a 9mm? I have a small Jennings JR .22 LR I could give her. I've got it fixed so that all the normal JR22 issues are gone but I don't know if this is the right choice.

Another thing I think worth asking on this subject, when firing warning shots is an intruder likely to run or attack?

Any thoughts would be great, thanks guys Oh and I'm in northern CO if that makes a difference

-Attila Rex

[Samuel]

Hi guys,

First thing I am only knowledgeable enough about guns to safely use and maintain them. Beyond that I'm a bit uneducated.

Keep learning, especially in an area you already have identified as being lesser educated.

I've recently been approached with a question about home defense.

Who "approached" you and what he/she ask?

I just researched all over this site and others and came up with a TON of opinions on what the ultimate home defense gun would be (usually a 12g shotgun with 9mm pistol backup.) But not only was this not what I was looking for, all the opinions were from people who have never actually had to deal with a home invasion. Basically they just wanted whatever would put the biggest hole in somebody.

And the problem with that is what? If you're gonna shoot somebody - it had better be for something "serious" and, in that case, you SHOULD want to put the biggest hole(S) you can in the Bad Guy(s).

I figured ask the people who see the aftermath of home invasions, good and bad scenarios.

My mother started asking me the other day what gun she should get for home defense. She is going to take a safety class but wants something that is 'safe' around the house.

I can't think of ANY deadly weapon that is going to be deadly ONLY to the Bad Guys - i.e. guaranteed "safe".

When she was little her brother got a hold of his dad's 9mm and accidentally killed himself, so she's a bit paranoid (understandably.) Obviously all guns are deadly and should be locked up but she wants something that has the least chance of killing a family member in a worst case scenario.

Anything that has the chance of killing a Bad Guy ALSO has the potential for killing a Good Guy as well.

Example desired criteria:
-Doesn't make it through walls.
Also look at different types of ammo.
-Likely to live if shot in non-vital area.
You're using a DEADLY WEAPON...
-Loud enough to scare someone away without actually hitting them.
That's not what a firearm is for. If you want to scare someone, get a Freddy or Jason or Michael mask... Or just buy blanks - that will cover your listed criteria.

My first thought was a tiny .22 pistol with a chambered blank. That way the first shot is loud but has absolutely no chance of hitting anyone (by purpose or accident) yet it still has 5-6 real sots behind it.
What if you never get the chance to shoot the "5-6 real shots behind it"?

The only problem is I heard that a .22 MIGHT be deadlier than a 9mm?
Yeah, maybe if you HIT with the .22 and MISS with the 9...

I have a small Jennings JR .22 LR I could give her. I've got it fixed so that all the normal JR22 issues are gone but I don't know if this is the right choice.
You HAVE a gun but you still don't know the answers to the questions you're asking???

Another thing I think worth asking on this subject, when firing warning shots is an intruder likely to run or attack?
No guarantees - does it matter what "likely" is if the Bad Guy decides to do the opposite of whatever you were hoping for?

Any thoughts would be great, thanks guys Oh and I'm in northern CO if that makes a difference

-Attila Rex

If you are conerned about personal safety and are considering carrying/having a weapon/tool to help keep you safe, you need to be Ready, Willing, and Able to use whatever it is.

Ready - the item should be readily accessible, immediately deployable, and in proper operating condition
Willing - you need to know when you can use the item, the ramifications of using the item, and Not hesitate to use the item when the time comes
Able - you need to know how to use the item, physically be capable of using the item, and be well trained in effectively using the item

IMO, you and your mom should go get education/training or More education/training in all 3 areas...

[DeltaV]

Example desired criteria:
-Doesn't make it through walls.
-Likely to live if shot in non-vital area.
-Loud enough to scare someone away without actually hitting them.

Someone with a criteria like this simply does not need to own a gun. They have a greater chance of the gun being taken from them and used against them than successfully using the gun on an intruder.

[Attila Rex]

Ok... maybe trying to approach this with too much modesty was a bad idea.

I appreciate what you are telling me but you guys didn't really get the point there. She IS going to take classes, she IS prepared to use it. HOWEVER if using a 20g shotgun with light bird shot will eviscerate an intruder yet leave an individual behind a sheetrock wall unscathed, she'd rather go with that than a 12g with slugs. If you are less likely to bleed out from a .22 than a 9mm than she'd like that.

Here's my issue though, looking through forums nobody can agree. Some say a 20g with birdshot wont kill your dog, others say it will take down a door. People are saying .22's are barely lethal while other's say they bounce around in the body or zigzag through flesh on impact making them less INITIALLY lethal yet more lethal in the course of several hours. So would a 9mm that has less chance of ricochet actually have a less chance of killing you in the long run? I am asking about worst case scenario when (in the highly unlikely incidence) you accidentally shoot yourself or someone else without meaning too. NOT the intruder, screw him he can bleed out on the rug. Unloading 5-6 bullets into a guy it wont matter much what the callibre is, it's the 1 accidental, un-aimed shot I'm asking about.

And the idea of using a blank... I for one would NEVER NEVER NEVER tell anyone to keep a gun with live ammo CHAMBERED. crappy guns have been known to fire even when safety enabled. However having a blank chambered gives you 3 advantages. 1- you get a free warning shot without using anything from your clip. 2- you never have to **** <(hmm... caulk?) the damn thing. Pick it up, fire the blank and bam you have live ammo chambered. 3- If your kid somehow gets a hold of the gun and accidentally fires it, nobody dies and he gets the living crap scared out of him.

Don't get me wrong I really appreciate what you guys were saying, it's just not quite what I meant. I have no delusions (nor does she) that you can get a gun that is non-lethal to loved ones yet can still halt an intruder. But There IS a difference. Don't use an uzi when you could use something with less chance for unintended casualties.

[marinepilot]

Ok... maybe trying to approach this with too much modesty was a bad idea.

I appreciate what you are telling me but you guys didn't really get the point there. She IS going to take classes, she IS prepared to use it. HOWEVER if using a 20g shotgun with light bird shot will eviscerate an intruder yet leave an individual behind a sheetrock wall unscathed, she'd rather go with that than a 12g with slugs. If you are less likely to bleed out from a .22 than a 9mm than she'd like that.

Here's my issue though, looking through forums nobody can agree. Some say a 20g with birdshot wont kill your dog, others say it will take down a door. People are saying .22's are barely lethal while other's say they bounce around in the body or zigzag through flesh on impact making them less INITIALLY lethal yet more lethal in the course of several hours. So would a 9mm that has less chance of ricochet actually have a less chance of killing you in the long run? I am asking about worst case scenario when (in the highly unlikely incidence) you accidentally shoot yourself or someone else without meaning too. NOT the intruder, screw him he can bleed out on the rug. Unloading 5-6 bullets into a guy it wont matter much what the callibre is, it's the 1 accidental, un-aimed shot I'm asking about.

ALL guns are lethal, and it doesn't really matter the ammo used, caliber, speed, whatever. What matters is shot placement. I've heard of people getting shot point blank in the face with a .357 and while they died in the long run, they lived long enough to fight and kill their attacker as well as almost make it to their getaway car a couple blocks down. Then I've seen a video of an officer that was hit with a .25 caliber round fired wildly from a bad guy, went into him between the sides of his vest, nicked his aorta, and he was dead within seconds, the whole time screaming for help into his radio as he's dying.

And the idea of using a blank... I for one would NEVER NEVER NEVER tell anyone to keep a gun with live ammo CHAMBERED. crappy guns have been known to fire even when safety enabled. However having a blank chambered gives you 3 advantages. 1- you get a free warning shot without using anything from your clip. 2- you never have to **** <(hmm... caulk?) the damn thing. Pick it up, fire the blank and bam you have live ammo chambered. 3- If your kid somehow gets a hold of the gun and accidentally fires it, nobody dies and he gets the living crap scared out of him.

If you would NEVER NEVER NEVER keep a gun with a round chambered, then you're not ready to own or use a gun. Do you think LEO's walk around with the gun on their hip without one in the chamber? The time it may take you to get that round chambered, and the noise it causes, may be the difference between life and YOUR death! Not the intention if you're trying to cause the death of the BAD GUY.

The problems with using a blank are, 1) blanks don't carry the powder and don't have quite the recoil that a real round has, so are prone to jam the gun, and if you're firing at a bad guy that you want to KILL, that's usually NOT the time you want your gun jamming; 2) if you're resorting to deadly force you would NEVER fire either a warning shot or something that is useless such as a blank, the point of deadly force is to stop that threat AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, and if that means killing the bad guy, so be it, and 3) blanks can be just as deadly as a real round if fired from a close range into a vital area of the body, which would most likely fit the bill of a child screwing around with the gun and aiming it at his head. All your reasons may give you warm fuzzies, but they are BS in the real world.

Don't get me wrong I really appreciate what you guys were saying, it's just not quite what I meant. I have no delusions (nor does she) that you can get a gun that is non-lethal to loved ones yet can still halt an intruder. But There IS a difference. Don't use an uzi when you could use something with less chance for unintended casualties.

There is NO difference!! If you are using the gun to protect yourself and your home, use the most deadly weapon you can!! The ONLY thing that will keep your loved ones safe with a weapon in the house is PROPER EDUCATION AND PREPARATION!! DO NOT let your kids get near the gun without you around, and if that means locking it up, so be it!! DO NOT keep the weapon a mystery to kids because what do kids love to do -- that which they are told NOT to do. I have kids and they know EXACTLY where my guns are, and that they are ALWAYS loaded. If they want to see them, they ask, and I stop what I'm doing, make the weapons safe, and monitor them while they are checking them out. Therefore, I take the mystery out of them and they have no desire to see them when I'm not around.

[Samuel]

Ok, get yourself a .22 revolver and load the first 2 rounds with blanks.

NEXT!

[Citicop]

The smallest calliber generally accepted for defensive purposes is .380.

A .22 is next to useless in stopping a real threat. It may well kill someone *eventually* but that's not what you want in a defensive weapon. The idea that you shoot the bad guy and he runs off to die is a fallacy. He will just as likely continue to fight until he can no longer do so.

If you want effectiveness without over penetration, get a revolver that will chamber both .38 and .357, and invest in some Glaser safety slugs which will break up and not penetrate drywall (from what I understand).

There's no reason to keep blanks in a gun IMHO. Loaded or unloaded, don't muddy the waters with a third option...

-Citicop.

[Samuel]

The smallest calliber generally accepted for defensive purposes is .380.

A .22 is next to useless in stopping a real threat. It may well kill someone *eventually* but that's not what you want in a defensive weapon. The idea that you shoot the bad guy and he runs off to die is a fallacy. He will just as likely continue to fight until he can no longer do so.

If you want effectiveness without over penetration, get a revolver that will chamber both .38 and .357, and invest in some Glaser safety slugs which will break up and not penetrate drywall (from what I understand).

There's no reason to keep blanks in a gun IMHO. Loaded or unloaded, don't muddy the waters with a third option...

-Citicop.

But see, the problem is that you're making sense. The OP doesn't want sensible advice - he just wants recommendations that will fit his view of self-defense/firearms/safety (ergo the suggestion of a .22 with a mix of blanks and live ammo)...

[Cat_Doc]

Example desired criteria:
-Doesn't make it through walls.
-Likely to live if shot in non-vital area.
-Loud enough to scare someone away without actually hitting them.

This, to me, is a perfect example of incompetent gun ownership.

Buy your mom a German Shepherd dog and forget the guns if this is your "desired criteria."

[BP348]

How many people live with your Mom? If she lives by herself then the thought of buckshot going through the walls shouldn't be a consideration and she should get a 12 gauge,Not a 20 a 12 gauge, and load it with double 00 buck. If she does live with someone then a good revolver that takes .38 or .357 with the safety slugs is the way to go. Even if she lives with someone a 12 gauge with a revolver back up is a good idea.

Forget about the blanks, if you're willing to shoot a blank then you should be willing to shoot a real bullet.

[Attila Rex]

Awesome! Thanks guys

I figured opinions here would bring up some better info than most forrums. The suggestion about .38/.357 with glaser safety slugs was perfect. Nobody in any forum or even in person ever told me that blanks tend to misfire, and finally a sensible answer to the whole birdshot/buckshot argument. If anyone has more info to add throw it at me (even if like samuel it's to say I'm a prick, all opinions are welcome.) personally I'm sticking with a maverick 88 security 8shot 12g because the closest thing I have to a kid is a dog that would wet itself if an intruder came in. She on the other hand tends to have lots of company year round.

Thanks again!

[icu650]

I am considering the past history of the brother accidentally killing himself when I say you should build a "safe room". You can either take and existing room and turn it into a safe room or add a small extension to your dwelling if possible. The safe room would be available in the remote case of a home invasion but would be there for severe weather as well. I would equip this safe room with a 12 gauge auto shotgun with bird shot. This rifle would be adequately secured to a rack inside the room but in such a manner as provide immediate access through numbered combination or fingerprint. The room would also have exterior video and update outside communications. It also should be stocked for severe weather such as weather radio, flashlights, snacks etc. I am not saying you don't have the right to blow someone away that illegally enters and threatens your family all I am saying that if this invasion ever occurs the actions you respond with are the actions you still have to live with for the rest of your life.
I know I probably will get a little heat from the guys about running away to a safe room but I think if you can fit one in your house why not.

[Jim1348]

Has any thought been given to:

-Making the home as safe as it can be.

-Excellent deadbolt locks.

-Alarm system

-Cameras

Also, has any thought been given to a civilian Taser?

Black TASER C2: Safe, Effective Self-Defense

Having been exposed very recently to the latest pepper spray, I would even consider that.

Maybe a Tigerlight is worth looking into. http://www.tigerlight.net

Is the home in a very high crime area? I can say, that with the exception of home invasion/drug dealer vs. drug dealer crimes, most burglars don't want to break into an occupied dwelling. Now sometimes when you dig deeper into these scenarios you learn the real issue is someone afraid of a family member or ex-spouse. Actually, all of this is probably academic at this point. Since she is taking a safety class soon, probably the decision should be made AFTER the class, NOT before!

[Samuel]

Awesome! Thanks guys

I figured opinions here would bring up some better info than most forrums. The suggestion about .38/.357 with glaser safety slugs was perfect. Nobody in any forum or even in person ever told me that blanks tend to misfire, and finally a sensible answer to the whole birdshot/buckshot argument. If anyone has more info to add throw it at me (even if like samuel it's to say I'm a prick, all opinions are welcome.) personally I'm sticking with a maverick 88 security 8shot 12g because the closest thing I have to a kid is a dog that would wet itself if an intruder came in. She on the other hand tends to have lots of company year round.

Thanks again!

Did you just accuse me of calling you a prick? I simply acknowledged the fact that you're Ignorant and Non-Sensical - if those having those characteristics meets Your definition of "prick", then I guess Your shoe fits... I didn't even get into your apparent closed mindedness and know it all attitude before you "saw the light"...

[Citicop]

This warning is issued to all parties here:

Personal Attacks, Arguments, and off topic disagreements are NOT appropriate for the public forums.

Take it to PM, please.

That is all.

-Citicop.