Ohio CCW and knives

[LSDillinger]

Sorry if this has already come up, the search didn't give me anything.

So. I am your average law abiding student who is about buy an M9 and get his concealed carry. Before anyone tries to discourage me from carrying a full size service pistol, don't bother; I've been carrying an airsoft M9 with the exact same weight and dimensions as the real article in my waistband around the house for 3 days now and it has yet to bug me in any way, and that's without a purpose-built holster.

I would like to carry a fixed-blade knife as well, just in case. I understand that the odds of my pistol failing me are slim, and that odds of my ever even needing it are slim, however I firmly believe in the doctrine that 'victory favors the prepared'.

I am trained in knife fighting, and have plenty of practice, so the odds of me unintentionally injuring myself or being disarmed while using a knife are even less than with a pistol.

I've been all over the ORC and the internet and can find no clear answer as to what sort of blade I can carry, only that it cannot be concealed, and I cannot find a clear answer as to whether a CCW permit would cover a blade AND a firearm. All I can find is that some states have permits for both, some require separate permits, nothing about how it is in Ohio.

I know that local laws at the city/county/township/takeyourpick level often differ from state law where knives are concerned. IMHO it seems that the law is almost intentionally vague on the matter. A prosecutor would have a LOT of room to run and play in.

Almost everyone I know carries a small folding blade, more for utility than anything else, and I see guys with huge buck knives on their belts all the time (especially this time of year), however I would much prefer a small fixed blade either in my boot or on the back of my belt.

Would this be OK or am I going to be stuck with my mediocre unarmed skills should my gun fail?

[Citicop]

I am not familiar with Ohio law specifically, but I am familiar with no juruisdictions where an otherwise illegal knife is allowed due to a CCW permit.

Those are for firearms only everywhere I am familiar with.

-Citicop.

[mcsap]

What kind of FORMAL edged weapon training do you have and what are the creds of the instructor ?

Carrying an airsoft gun around your house is VASTLY different than carrying the real thing.

Have you ever even fired a " full sized service pistol" ?

Why do you need to carry a gun / knife ?

What would you do if you were pulled over and you were carrying your gun concealed ?

What would you do if you exposed your concealed gun and people started freaking out and called 911 ?

What places prohibit you from carrying a gun regardless of having a permit ?

[LSDillinger]

What kind of FORMAL edged weapon training do you have and what are the creds of the instructor ?

None, sadly, all my training is informal at the hands of people who were formally trained, most notably my USMC buddies and an ex Massad dude that I used to live across the hall from. I do, however, have formal training in both Kendo and Iaido, and while a katana differs vastly from a a small tac knife, the safety principles are the same, and the unarmed techniques involved in both swordfighting disciplines closely mirror a lot of knife fighting. At the risk of sounding quite stupid, once one has grasped the 'L' concept, disarming or avoiding a disarm comes quite naturally.
If I may digress (as tough you could refuse), I will admit my interest in martial arts has been recreational for the most part, I've always been athletic but your average sports never interested me. I've always thought "Why chase a ball around when I can get my exercise in doing something that might prove useful someday, and that is ultimately more interesting and rewarding?"
Besides this no non-martial sport is so thoroughly permeated with the idea of non-violent conflict resolution and self-control. The football team at my high school got into fights all the time. All of us taking fencing and Tae Kwon Do had that 'monk attitude' of "Fight with your tongue, not your fists."
By carrying a concealed weapon I would be legally required to adhere to a similar value system, thus adding another layer of discipline to my life, which is something I greatly value. Regardless of where that discipline comes from, it has a rippling effect throughout the rest of one's life.

Carrying an airsoft gun around your house is VASTLY different than carrying the real thing.

I realize this. I am in no danger of blowing my testes off with an airsoft gun, but I would be in no danger of blowing my testes off with a genuine M9, either, even with a round in the chamber. Such is the beauty of DA/SA transition, safeties, and understanding how to properly handle a firearm. And, as I said previously, my GBB M9 is the EXACT weight and dimensions of a fully loaded 15+1 M9. If it wasn't I wouldn't have bothered trying it out to see it was a feasible choice. And, again, this is without a proper IWB holster to efficiently distribute the weight and guard the safety lever and trigger against unintentional manipulation from my pants, belt, things I may bump into, exceptionally outgoing females, &etc.

Have you ever even fired a " full sized service pistol" ?

I have shot everything from a Kel-Tec .380 subcompact (terrible accuracy) all the way up to a genuine Barrett M95 (which made me question the decision to even design a bullpup .50, having that action right next to your cheek weld is pretty extreme). This is a pretty comprehensive list including most every commonly used caliber in pistols and rifles, revolver and semi, bolt action and gas impingement and gas piston, and several gauges of shotgun. Needless to say this list includes the M9, which is my handgun of choice for comfort, accuracy, and reliability, as well as ease of takedown/maintenance. Not to mention that 9x19 is cheap and commonly available, meaning maintaining my ability to match the gun's potential for accuracy would not leave a gigantic hole in my wallet.
Not to brag, but my marksmanship is on par with that of my military friends (thanks in no small part to their advice), and in any case I've been around guns my entire life, I was 11 the first time my brother let me shoot his .22. I've been hooked ever since.

Why do you need to carry a gun / knife ?

In the most explicit sense of the word, I will probably never actually need either. However, my schooling will be taking me to Columbus in the near future, which like any large city has its share of unsavory types. I've spent a good bit of time in the city and heard the gunshots at night, been in bars when people came in asking for a phone to call 911 after being attacked, and I watch the news. I have no illusions about the 'generally decent' nature of my fellow man, and I plan on living in much bigger and better places than Ohio after I graduate, which will of course expose me to higher, more densely packed populations, and thus a greater degree of risk.
I suppose I should point out that I've worked night shift most of my life and tend to be out and about after dark more often than during the day, which further increases the potential that I may at some point need some means of defense above and beyond what my 160lb frame can provide by itself.
As for the knife, as I said, the odds of my needing it are even lower, since I'd only ever need it if my handgun failed somehow, but the chance is still there. Not to mention that a blade has many applications besides defense, and that a blade could be used in situations where a gun could not (if I'm attacked by someone with a knife, I'd much prefer to disarm him and see him go to jail and maybe turn his life around, rather than have to shoot him). Most places don't care if you're carrying a small knife, or even a large knife (again, I've seen huge Bowies hanging from belts in Wal-Mart and worse), so I could keep it with me on some of the many occasions my firearm would have to stay in my car. And honestly carrying a fixed blade would save me all the time and trouble and maintenance of using a folder for practical non-defense applications, i.e. camping, prying stuff better pried with a screwdriver, tightening screws better turned with a screwdriver, etc. I may only be saving milliseconds at a time, but hey, time is money.

What would you do if you were pulled over and you were carrying your gun concealed ?

I would:
Pull over as usual.
Roll my window down as usual.
Keep my hands visible at all times (common practice is to hold them out the window, on the steering wheel at 12, over one's head, etc. Another foggy bit of the ORC, they don't specify anything but constant visibility).
Immediately inform the officer both that I have a license to carry a concealed weapon and that I am doing so at the time (and by immediately I mean before even a "Hi, how are you, why did you pull me over?")
Follow the officer's instructions as usual, of course with the addition of any instructions involving the handgun.

I would NOT:
Compromise the constant visibility of my hands in any way, unless instructed to do so.
Make or attempt to make any contact with the firearm unless instructed to do so.
Leave the vehicle, unless instructed to do so.
Do anything without explicit instruction from the officer.

What would you do if you exposed your concealed gun and people started freaking out and called 911 ?

The short answer is, I wouldn't. But slim chances are chances none the less, and should the wind happen to lift my shirt or if upon twisting around or cracking my back the handle of the gun caught the fabric and said, "Hey look at me, I'm a gun and for all you know this guy carrying me is a psychopath, in fact he must be since he's hiding me," I would immediately explain that I am licensed to have it and produce said license, all with slow deliberate motions, a calm tone, and of course the constant visibility of both hands (I would even go so far as to turn so the concerned could see I was reaching for my wallet and not another gun). Upon doing so I would wait for law enforcement to arrive, explain the situation, and mentally prepare for the possibility of being arrested and charged with brandishing a weapon, depending of course upon the attitudes of any witnesses, their taste for embellishment, and the views of the officer who showed up.


What places prohibit you from carrying a gun regardless of having a permit ?

Schools, if I intend to enter the building or attend any function whether it is indoor or outdoor, which of course includes college campuses. This part really sucks, it can be a long walk between classes and from the campus buildings to wherever I parked, &etc. But it is what it is.
Any establishment that serves alcohol, if I am consuming alcohol at the time.
Any government office, courthouse, or any building containing a courtroom or gov't office, including but not limited to police stations, sheriff's departments, the BMV, and so on.
Any place with a sign stating that weapons are not welcome.
Any privately owned residence or other piece of architecture where weapons are not welcome.
I feel I've forgotten something but I don't want to 'cheat' and look it up.

Now in summary, I understand why you or anyone would question a person's desire to go armed all the time, and it probably doesn't help that my last name is Dillinger and my initials are LSD. The simple fact of the matter is, criminals are going to go armed with or without lawful authorization, if I can do so legally, I will. I have the utmost faith in the law enforcement community, and have no problem with depending on you guys to do your job to keep me safe, but there's not an infinite number of officers on beat all the time, and you can't be everywhere.
That being said I wish to do EVERYTHING I can do within the law to keep myself and those around safe in any extreme, no matter how unlikely it may be. If I wasn't certain of how troublesome and irritating it would end up being, I would gladly take advantage of Ohio's open carry law and just wear my hip holster all the time. I think, however, that after the hundredth time explaining my legal rights to whoever just called the cops, after the hundredth time of pointing to the excerpt of the ORC that I no doubt would have to have taped to my shirt (and all this probably within an hour of stepping out), even my patience would fail and I'd have to give it up and leave the steel at home. Another of those things where popular opinion seems to supersede law.
A gun is probably enough, more than enough even, but if I can carry a knife as well, I want to. Guns jam. Ammo runs out. People get tackled and watch their firearm sail away and skip across the asphalt, well out of reach. I may be the target of a well planned assault that includes multiple assailants, ambush characteristics, you name it. I want to be a doctor, not a statistic.

Sorry for being so long winded, I'm used to writing reports, and my experience it's better to get it all out at once rather than having to go back and agonize over whatever details you left out in the assumption they were understood.

[Samuel]

I'm just taking a small portion of your dissertation to comment on:

Not to mention that a blade has many applications besides defense, and that a blade could be used in situations where a gun could not

You will probably have a hard time convincing an officer or a deputy DA that after the fact. If/when it comes to conflict, combat, self-defense, etc a blade is much more often than not going to be viewed as a deadly weapon, especially if you're carrying a "tool" with only one blade. You can use a blade to pare fruit - a little more difficult to do the same with a gun. Is that the kind of "situation" you're talking about?

(if I'm attacked by someone with a knife, I'd much prefer to disarm him and see him go to jail and maybe turn his life around, rather than have to shoot him)

IMO, absolutely the wrong mindset and one that could possibly get you killed.

Most places don't care if you're carrying a small knife, or even a large knife (again, I've seen huge Bowies hanging from belts in Wal-Mart and worse), so I could keep it with me on some of the many occasions my firearm would have to stay in my car.

What "places" (or "occasions") would allow you to carry a knife but not a firearm with a legit CCW?



IMO, you're putting the cart before the horse. First, get your CCW. THEN, WHILE getting your CCW, ask the same questions you're asking here. In the meantime, you can call your local district attorney's office and ask their opinions.

[LSDillinger]

I'm just taking a small portion of your dissertation to comment on:

Not to mention that a blade has many applications besides defense, and that a blade could be used in situations where a gun could not

You will probably have a hard time convincing an officer or a deputy DA that after the fact. If/when it comes to conflict, combat, self-defense, etc a blade is much more often than not going to be viewed as a deadly weapon, especially if you're carrying a "tool" with only one blade. You can use a blade to pare fruit - a little more difficult to do the same with a gun. Is that the kind of "situation" you're talking about?

I don't see what you're getting at. I have no intention of trying to carry a knife as anything other than a weapon, just because it has other applications does not change what it is (hence the joke about using it as a screwdriver)



(if I'm attacked by someone with a knife, I'd much prefer to disarm him and see him go to jail and maybe turn his life around, rather than have to shoot him)

IMO, absolutely the wrong mindset and one that could possibly get you killed.

If the hypothetical assailant chose to continue his attack after I relieved him of his weapon, he would quickly regret it. More to the point I know how to take someone's knife and break their arm in three places with the same motion. Just because my mind defaults to nonviolence does not I could not immediately make the switch if called upon to do so. This is why I didn't ask for opinions.

Most places don't care if you're carrying a small knife, or even a large knife (again, I've seen huge Bowies hanging from belts in Wal-Mart and worse), so I could keep it with me on some of the many occasions my firearm would have to stay in my car.

What "places" (or "occasions") would allow you to carry a knife but not a firearm with a legit CCW?

Most everywhere. While you all were busy quizzing me, I found my answers elsewhere. Worst case scenario, if I wanted to take my knife somewhere I couldn't take my gun, I couldn't conceal it.



IMO, you're putting the cart before the horse. First, get your CCW. THEN, WHILE getting your CCW, ask the same questions you're asking here. In the meantime, you can call your local district attorney's office and ask their opinions.


I see what you're getting at with that last bit, but to use your metaphor, I'm not putting the cart before the horse, I'm just making sure everything in the cart is secured before I bother unstabling my animal.

From what I've gathered carrying any sort of dependable fixed blade would end much the same as openly carrying a handgun, it may be legal, but law often takes a backseat to popular opinion.

In any case thanks everyone for your time, it's been fun.

[Samuel]

I'm just taking a small portion of your dissertation to comment on:

Not to mention that a blade has many applications besides defense, and that a blade could be used in situations where a gun could not

You will probably have a hard time convincing an officer or a deputy DA that after the fact. If/when it comes to conflict, combat, self-defense, etc a blade is much more often than not going to be viewed as a deadly weapon, especially if you're carrying a "tool" with only one blade. You can use a blade to pare fruit - a little more difficult to do the same with a gun. Is that the kind of "situation" you're talking about?

I don't see what you're getting at. I have no intention of trying to carry a knife as anything other than a weapon, just because it has other applications does not change what it is (hence the joke about using it as a screwdriver)



(if I'm attacked by someone with a knife, I'd much prefer to disarm him and see him go to jail and maybe turn his life around, rather than have to shoot him)

IMO, absolutely the wrong mindset and one that could possibly get you killed.

If the hypothetical assailant chose to continue his attack after I relieved him of his weapon, he would quickly regret it. More to the point I know how to take someone's knife and break their arm in three places with the same motion. Just because my mind defaults to nonviolence does not I could not immediately make the switch if called upon to do so. This is why I didn't ask for opinions.

Most places don't care if you're carrying a small knife, or even a large knife (again, I've seen huge Bowies hanging from belts in Wal-Mart and worse), so I could keep it with me on some of the many occasions my firearm would have to stay in my car.

What "places" (or "occasions") would allow you to carry a knife but not a firearm with a legit CCW?

Most everywhere. While you all were busy quizzing me, I found my answers elsewhere. Worst case scenario, if I wanted to take my knife somewhere I couldn't take my gun, I couldn't conceal it.



IMO, you're putting the cart before the horse. First, get your CCW. THEN, WHILE getting your CCW, ask the same questions you're asking here. In the meantime, you can call your local district attorney's office and ask their opinions.


I see what you're getting at with that last bit, but to use your metaphor, I'm not putting the cart before the horse, I'm just making sure everything in the cart is secured before I bother unstabling my animal.

From what I've gathered carrying any sort of dependable fixed blade would end much the same as openly carrying a handgun, it may be legal, but law often takes a backseat to popular opinion.

In any case thanks everyone for your time, it's been fun.

A little bit of HEARSAY and EXPOSURE (as opposed to Knowledge and Training/Experience) = know it all attitude.

Good luck staying alive or out of jail...

::CLICK::

[Citicop]

If the hypothetical assailant chose to continue his attack after I relieved him of his weapon, he would quickly regret it. More to the point I know how to take someone's knife and break their arm in three places with the same motion.

Have you ever done this to someone? Have you ever *tried* to use that move on someone who was not "cooperating" in training? Have you ever been in a fight where the outcome might be someone dying at the end?

Because it's a whole new ballgame then.

Your self confidence is truly astounding.

I hope it's well placed, or you are very likely to get yourself or someone you love killed playing Steven Segal in a street fight.

-Citicop.

[Samuel]

He put a K&N air filter on his Yugo. Now that it's faster and he's Such a good driver, he's ready to compete in the Indy 500...

[LSDillinger]

My self confidence is astounding, because I am confident. If this is a bad quality, then you guys should make an effort to correct every person ever to teach me anything from kindergarten and on.

Personally, I find your collective level of condescension to be beyond astounding. Not one of you knows anything about me beyond what I have offered in this forum, yet you feel safe in assuming that I'm just talking a big game (and for what, exactly? Why offer up false information when seeking a legitimate answer to a question?).

No, I've never broken anyone's anything, that doesn't mean I couldn't do it if I had to. Believe it or not, I am aware of the difference between a safe training environment and an actual fight. I've been in my share. I've had my wrist and ribs broken by a baseball bat, but THAT guy spent more time in the hospital than I did. I don't 'play' anyone in a fight. I do what I have been trained to do, and it works. Yes. Trained. You seem to have overlooked a lot of my 'dissertation' that didn't support your argument. I am not *formally* trained in knife fighting, but I am trained. I *AM* formally trained in several martial arts.

You know, I've only ever met two cops that I actually liked as people. You've provided a pretty good representation of the rest of them. You didn't like what I was asking or why, so you went on the offensive for no reason other than personal bias. You talk about hearsay and exposure and yet you act on ASSUMPTION.

I've never seen the inside of a jail cell and I don't plan to. Remember that confidence thing? I DON'T plan to, so I WON'T. Period. If you can't make these kinds of statements yourself, I feel sorry for you and the communities you 'protect'. Self-doubt is the first form of failure.

Should have just called my lawyer to begin with. *removes gloves*

Better to ask a two-faced prick than to argue with a holier-than-thou pig.

I bid you all farewell, have wonderful lives, and thank you for reminding why I decided against a law enforcement career in the first place.

[Samuel]

is on Ignore but lemme guess, he's still

[Citicop]

For the record, I didn't condescend to you; I asked you pointed questions which were (believe it or not) in your best interest.

I don't know what your level of skill is, but I do (in real life) know people who are as skilled as you claim to be. None of them brag or talk about it on the internet.

Since you have elected to leave us, there is no purpose in leaving this thread open.