I have an angry acquaintance...

[humor me]

He claims that:
A person doesn't have to follow a policeman's orders until they have been arrested.
Until you have broken the law, they have no authority.
If you are not causing a public problem, they can't bother you.

How much of that is true? Notice I didn't say, "How much of that is a good/bad idea?"

[BJJVad]

He claims that:
A person doesn't have to follow a policeman's orders until they have been arrested.

Most the time this is what leads to an arrest.

148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

Until you have broken the law, they have no authority.

The authority is there, but our job is to enforce laws. Research "Probable Cause Arrests."

If you are not causing a public problem, they can't bother you.

Kinda true. Most laws are to protect the public. Another large factor is that if no one is seeing you violate the law, who's going to report you? However, this is not the golden standard and there are such things as warrants that allow us to surpass laws against man and his castle.

However I prefer the ol', "If you aint breakin the law, why worry about it?"

How much of that is true? Notice I didn't say, "How much of that is a good/bad idea?"

I got a great evaluation tool for you to ask yourself, "How much legal education does he have?" "How long has he been practicing law?" "Would you bet several months/years of your freedom on your friends word?"

In addition (Notice I didn't say, "How much of that is a good/bad idea?"), is not necessary as it is very much relevant to the questions you asked and pertinent to our existence.

[Legoate]

He claims that:
A person doesn't have to follow a policeman's orders until they have been arrested.
Until you have broken the law, they have no authority.
If you are not causing a public problem, they can't bother you.

How much of that is true? Notice I didn't say, "How much of that is a good/bad idea?"

Whenever I run into this type of thing there is usually alcohol involved. It generally comes from a call of someone acting like a tool on private property- say a club, the mall, or a sporting event. Whoever is running the event calls the police. We contact the person and they give us the "this is a free country, I don't have to leave" act.

What they don't realize is that there are many limits to your freedom in this country. You can't practice your freedom when you are on someone elses property, and it's not smart to practice your freedom while you are intoxicated in public.

I've had college students who believed they were junior lawyers dare me to arrest them after I've nicely asked them to go home and sleep it off for the night. I've been amazed at how many of them were completely surprised that I had the authority to arrest them and book them into jail.

I use this rule when I'm working- If I tell you that I'm going to arrest you, then I KNOW I have the authority and ability to arrest you- whether you believe I do or not. I am not going to explain my probable cause for the arrest, or give you a word for word account of the report I'm going to write.

I'm simply going to tell you that you are under arrest, put handcuffs on you, and take you to jail. There will be plenty of time in a cell for you to figure out whether or not I had the legal authority to take you to jail- and I have yet to have a judge kick one of my arrests for a lack of probable cause.

As a Post note to your question: Many states have a law which requires you to follow the lawful orders of law enforcement officers. So simply doing something other than what officers tell you in certain situations is a violation of the law.

[mcsap]

You also don't have to pay your taxes , put license plates on your car , have a valid drivers license , pay back the loan for your home. But there will be a penalty for making that choice. I cant make you get a drivers license but I can keep arresting you every time I catch you driving.

There are times that we can order you to do something and if you fail to do so , that is cause for arrest. And WE get to make the determination on whether or not it is a " public nuisance".

[Samuel]

He claims that:
A person doesn't have to follow a policeman's orders until they have been arrested.
Until you have broken the law, they have no authority.
If you are not causing a public problem, they can't bother you.

How much of that is true? Notice I didn't say, "How much of that is a good/bad idea?"

In addition to what has already been written above - there are three types of contacts: consentual contacts, detentions, and arrests. Consentual contacts are the only ones where I have no authority over you and you can ignore me and walk/drive/whatever away. In the other two, I have legal grounds to give you lawful verbal commands and even use physical force if you don't comply. Sometimes the problem is that people may not believe (or admit) that I have grounds to detain or arrest them when I actually DO...

[ChesCopPodz]

Here's the problem with his logic. Just because he THINKS there is no requirement, that doesn't mean there isn't. If I know I have a reason to give him an order, and he doesn't comply because he doesn't think I have a reason, it will lead to him being arrested.

[humor me]

This "angry acquaintance" is on one of my service dog forums. Another member had asked for advice when she heard about a service dog handler (we'll call him "Dude") having been harassed in a grocery store.

The police were apparently called on Dude while shopping even though he had told the store personnel that he had a service dog. When he got out to his car, four police cars had pulled up to his with the sirens and lights, guns drawn and he had refused to get out of the car. (Mind you this is all 3rd-hand) In the end, they ticketed Dude for "no insurance" because he couldn't produce his personal insurance in a rental and told him to leave and never come back to town again. I feel like I'm watching a bad 60's spaghetti western.

The advice given was by the angry acquaintance. Basically, he was saying that the guy didn't do anything wrong. We still don't have any details on what really went down in the store. Like whether the guy was disrespectful when he took his dog in, whether his dog was causing a disturbance (which can still get even a service dog kicked out), or anything else. The OP was just looking for suggestions as to who to Dude might contact other than the Department of Justice to help resolve his issue of treatment.

Since I wasn't there, I didn't hear the phone conversation, and I haven't heard any updates, this is the only information I have. I have no idea as to its accuracy.

I'm highly suspect as to most of what Mr. Angry has to say most of the time. He claims that he clashes with the police on numerous occasions dealing with service dog issues (mainly that his dog needs to be on-leash and that, as a service dog, his dog is not required to be, which under ADA is true) so now he has become a service dog advocate for those in his state (I feel sorry for them because I know he is going off half-cocked).

When he posted those ridiculous statements, I just couldn't let it slide and wanted to get to the whole truth. Personally, I wouldn't do anything that would get a police officer angry/nervous intentionally to begin with. That's just asking to get your face added to someone's collection.

I didn't mean to turn this into a small novel, but I wanted to make it more clear that this wasn't my particular problem. I'm not stupid enough to hand out advice like that. Not my department. I would have told the guy that unless he had some sort of impairment that kept him from getting out of the car then, he should have followed the orders given by the police and dealt with fighting whatever ticket they wanted to issue later. I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on tv. As far as I know, neither has he.

[mobrien316]

Sounds more like "stupid" than angry.

[kels]

Thats the kind of "friend" who will get you arrested.
I would find someone else to hang out with.
He is an idiot.

Hey, I think I arrested him last New Years Eve........

[Jim1348]

That reminds me of a story when I was a city cop. I was working midnights and we had been having some residential burglaries, so when we found someone that didn't seem to belong in the area, we often dug a little bit deeper. Anyway, one night a guy is riding his bicycle at about 1 AM. I tried to do a traffic stop on him, but he refused to stop. Another officer and I finally get him stopped by boxing him in. He absolutely refused to identify himself and stated I had no ability to detain him. So, and granted it was a chickensh*t charge, I booked him for operating a bicycle at night with no headlight! (Yes, there actually IS a Minnesota Statute that requires this!) And then I transported him to jail. The neat thing is he also refused to identify himself at the Jail. No problem, he gets booked as a John Doe. When he sees the judge he also refused to identify himself. Again, this isn't a problem. The judge simply tells the jailers to allow him to remain in custody until he provides his name, date of birth, and other identifying information. If he simply would have given this information at the time of the stop, I would have ran him and, if he had no warrants, he would have been free to leave with no citation. But, I guess he sure showed me!

[humor me]

I kinda figured that it was a case of the I-know-everythings. I'm polite but distant on the boards with him. He has been kicked off more than one for being less than polite. I know people like him and you don't want to get on their dark side. Even at a distance they can make your life miserable if they want to.

Thanks for the information.

[BJJVad]

I kinda figured that it was a case of the I-know-everythings. I'm polite but distant on the boards with him. He has been kicked off more than one for being less than polite. I know people like him and you don't want to get on their dark side. Even at a distance they can make your life miserable if they want to.

Thanks for the information.

Generally speaking, I find this type of person not to be a threat at all. More hot air than actual action.

BTW, welcome back Troll Stomper! LOL