I got ticketed for this weird violation/I understand the concept of this law though.

[ironpony]

I got ticketed for not signaling not soon enough when turning onto a street. The officer said I am suppose to signal 10 car lengths in advance. I was driving at night however, and it is sometimes impossible to read a street sign that far in advance. Especially if something is blocking the view of it like a tall truck that is turning onto the same street in the process of me looking for the sign, behind it.

There is another problem. When I got ticked, I made a left turn, onto a street, then had to immediately make a right turn another, without even seeing it till right after the first turn. That's because both turns where less then 10 car lengths apart, so it's impossible to obey the law if the streets are built like that.

So basically the law is saying you have to know what street you are turning on before it is even possible to read the sign. You also have to know exactly which road you will turn on, before you have even turned onto the previous road, that gets to that road turn. So how is it that the law is set up that I have to have a whole city memorized before being able to drive in it, without being cited for a crime? I mean truck drivers are allowed to drive to cities they have not been in before and that's legal.

It just seems to me like it was an innocent mistake, since I did not know where I was going. There was no intent. I mean let's say a cop walks towards someone and says "think fast", then throws a small bag of drugs towards the person and he catches it out of shear reflex without thinking. Does that person deserve, by law, to be charged with drug possession? It seems that this particular road law is a trick, since the safety laws require you to have the place memorized before even ever being there. I mean should I signal all the time just to be safe? Or is also illegal to cancel a signal light and not turn, as well? Well the law is the law. But as officers and traffic experts, I was wondering if you have any advice that I am possibly missing, on how I could uphold this law competently in the future, so it doesn't happen again. Thanks.

[kazz]

Not sure about your country, but here traffic law is "strict liability" ~ there's no need to show intent. You either did or didn't comply with the road rule/traffic law, whatever you want to call it. By the way, I don't think it's a weird violation, IMHO.

When it comes to more serious crimes, intent and recklessness are often elements of the crime.

Here our case law says 3 clicks of the indicator (turn signal) or 30 metres (30 yards), which ever is greater.

So get those 3 clicks in and you're sweat.

[tcop733]

In Texas it's pretty clear cut, and I suspect it's the same in most states.

Sec. 545.104. SIGNALING TURNS; USE OF TURN SIGNALS. (a) An operator shall use the signal authorized by Section 545.106 to indicate an intention to turn, change lanes, or start from a parked position.

(b) An operator intending to turn a vehicle right or left shall signal continuously for not less than the last 100 feet of movement of the vehicle before the turn.

And the scenario of a cop throwing you a bag of drugs and charging you with possession of those drugs is probably entrapment.
A cop didn't build the roads you committed the violation on, nor did he entrap you to drive in an area you weren't familiar with, or plan appropriately to find.
Just because you were lost does not mean you get a free pass on committing traffic violations.
Apparently, this officer felt the violation warranted a citation, regardless of your confusion.

[ironpony]

In Texas it's pretty clear cut, and I suspect it's the same in most states.

And the scenario of a cop throwing you a bag of drugs and charging you with possession of those drugs is probably entrapment.
A cop didn't build the roads you committed the violation on, nor did he entrap you to drive in an area you weren't familiar with, or plan appropriately to find.
Just because you were lost does not mean you get a free pass on committing traffic violations.
Apparently, this officer felt the violation warranted a citation, regardless of your confusion.

Well here's a more accurate comparison. Say a blindman was crossing the street and he was outside the lines of the walkway by about a foot. Does that make him a criminal? Should we really be cited for a crime if we cannot see where the street is or which street will come? There was a case where a 90 year old woman cited for walking too slow in a crosswalk but she couldn't walk fast, and just because she had a disability does not make her a 'criminal', who intended to break the law. I've also seen cops signal too late before too and make lane changes without signaling, so they aren't infallible to making errors without intent either.

So should I signal way in advance before I can see the sign just in case for every turn? Or is that illegal too? How do I obey this law since my job requires me to make two turns that are less than 10 car lengths apart? I want to know how to prevent myself from accidentally breaking this law again.

[Piggy]

Well here's a more accurate comparison. Say a blindman was crossing the street and he was outside the lines of the walkway by about a foot. Does that make him a criminal? Should we really be cited for a crime if we cannot see where the street is or which street will come? There was a case where a 90 year old woman cited for walking too slow in a crosswalk but she couldn't walk fast, and just because she had a disability does not make her a 'criminal', who intended to break the law. I've also seen cops signal too late before too and make lane changes without signaling, so they aren't infallible to making errors without intent either.

So should I signal way in advance before I can see the sign just in case for every turn? Or is that illegal too? I want to know how to prevent myself from accidentally breaking this law again.

Probably a bad scenario to compare. Blind people don't have to use the crosswalk.

I would just request a court date and explain your situation to the judge. While you may be in violation of the law in black and white terms, he may understand your point.

[mcsap]

PA requires that you signal 100 ft prior to the turn at speeds under 35 mph and 300 ft prior at speeds over 35 mph. Is there some OTHER fact that you negelcted to metion like you cut in front of someone ? or maybe the officer was waiting to pull out and you approached and suddenly turned without signalling ?

There is NO requirement that we prove that you intended to commit a traffic violation. PERIOD. Either you did something or you didn't.

And trickery is 100% LEGAL. I absoultely can tell someone to hand over their drugs NOW or there will be worse consequences ( when I don't kow that that they even have any drugs).

I have called peoples home telling them that I was the UPS guy and have a package for " John Jones ". When John tells me that he is home , I'll stop by with my warrant and when his wife/family/parents tell me he isn't home...I know he is. Now either the entire clan can get locked up or they can bring John out to me.

I can and have used legal "trickery' quite effectively over the years and NEVER had any legal challenge to it.

Officers have wide discretion to enforce the traffic laws and turn signal violations aren't sought after unless the person does something that I outlined above.

[ironpony]

PA requires that you signal 100 ft prior to the turn at speeds under 35 mph and 300 ft prior at speeds over 35 mph. Is there some OTHER fact that you negelcted to metion like you cut in front of someone ? or maybe the officer was waiting to pull out and you approached and suddenly turned without signalling ?

There is NO requirement that we prove that you intended to commit a traffic violation. PERIOD. Either you did something or you didn't.

And trickery is 100% LEGAL. I absoultely can tell someone to hand over their drugs NOW or there will be worse consequences ( when I don't kow that that they even have any drugs).

I have called peoples home telling them that I was the UPS guy and have a package for " John Jones ". When John tells me that he is home , I'll stop by with my warrant and when his wife/family/parents tell me he isn't home...I know he is. Now either the entire clan can get locked up or they can bring John out to me.

I can and have used legal "trickery' quite effectively over the years and NEVER had any legal challenge to it.

Officers have wide discretion to enforce the traffic laws and turn signal violations aren't sought after unless the person does something that I outlined above.

No I am not leaving anything out. I did not cut in front of anyone or anything like that. Yes trickery can be a very good thing in the interest of justice, maybe that was a bad choice of word. In my case, the only way a person could know where a street corner is, two street turns in advance, is if that person was psychic. No one can know where a street is if you have to make a turn around a corner before you even come up and see it. If you know the city by heart, then yes, but if you don't and the maps aren't always right, there is no way to tell. I think it is unreasonable for there to be a law that says you have see into the future to know when to signal.

The thing is I was thinking of being a police officer. I haven't enrolled yet but was highly considering. Now I am not sure since certain laws require that people have to be psychic in order obey them. If I were an officer, how could I enforce a law that is impossible for non-psychics to obey? I think there should be some clear cut reasonableness when it comes to things like that and not have everything be in black and white, especially since it's a very grey area offense, since people don't know when the street is coming and what not.

[mcsap]

No I am not leaving anything out. I did not cut in front of anyone or anything like that. Yes trickery can be a very good thing in the interest of justice, maybe that was a bad choice of word. In my case, the only way a person could know where a street corner is, two street turns in advance, is if that person was psychic. No one can know where a street is if you have to make a turn around a corner before you even come up and see it. If you know the city by heart, then yes, but if you don't and the maps aren't always right, there is no way to tell. I think it is unreasonable for there to be a law that says you have see into the future to know when to signal.

The thing is I was thinking of being a police officer. I haven't enrolled yet but was highly considering. Now I am not sure since certain laws require that people have to be psychic in order obey them. If I were an officer, how could I enforce a law that is impossible for non-psychics to obey? I think there should be some clear cut reasonableness when it comes to things like that and not have everything be in black and white, especially since it's a very grey area offense, since people don't know when the street is coming and what not.

If this situation alone is your way of rationalizing your choice to not be an officer....then we don't want you anyway. Would you also quit the force if one of your cases was thrown out ? A case that was ROCK SOLID ??

Officers have WIDE discretion to enforce traffic laws. Not every officer will write what the next one will except in certain more extreme cases like 15 + speeding, red lights , school bus passes and reckless driving. The officer was legally correct in his issuiing of a traffic citation. You are legally incorrect. However, you have the opportunity to go to court and tell a judge what you told us here. A judge is not going to rubberstamp what a police officer does. He is going to look at the law and than will also listen to YOUR side of the story. He may well side with you and state while you did commit an offense , that he is fniding you not guilty due to the circumstances.

Maybe you did something to piss the officer off ? In my state , it is a ticketable offense to not sign your registration card. I have only cited TWO people in 25 years for not signing their card. Each time that I did this they did something pretty stupid and then gave me a hard time about it.

If you had a bad dentist would you never go to another ??

If you had a bad mechanic would you never take your car in for repairs ?

Go to court if you feel that the citation was wrong. The officer and or jusde may even be willing to drop it or reduce it or allow driving school or ???? Or maybe the judge will totoally agree with you and toss it.

[greg72982]

The thing is I was thinking of being a police officer. I haven't enrolled yet but was highly considering. Now I am not sure since certain laws require that people have to be psychic in order obey them. If I were an officer, how could I enforce a law that is impossible for non-psychics to obey?

[ironpony]

Yeah this alone probably won't deter my decision. I just need to bounce back after this wears off. No I did not do anything to piss the officer, off, unless he got mad at the littlest thing, like he didn't like my car or something. He did not ask to see my registration card, and even if he did, not signing it is a pretty dumb reason for an officer to let that bother him.

But yeah, I'll get over it. I'm guessing a thing like this happens to a lot of out of state truck drivers who are not familiar with cities in different states. So I'm guessing it happens about 30 times a year. That's 30 drivers per state, that have to return to court from another state to face the charge.

So if you add all those offenses per each state, per year, we are talking thousands and thousands of dollars in court costs every year... for just minor innocent signal light miscalculations. Talk about millions that could have been saved but are now lost forever. And people wonder where all our money is going. Not trying pick on anyone or anything. I overall respect police and the law as a whole. Just making an observation.

[DeltaV]

But yeah, I'll get over it. I'm guessing a thing like this happens to a lot of out of state truck drivers who are not familiar with cities in different states. So I'm guessing it happens about 30 times a year. That's 30 drivers per state, that have to return to court from another state to face the charge.

So if you add all those offenses per each state, per year, we are talking thousands and thousands of dollars in court costs every year... for just minor innocent signal light miscalculations. Talk about millions that could have been saved but are now lost forever. And people wonder where all our money is going. Not trying pick on anyone or anything. I overall respect police and the law as a whole. Just making an observation.

Quit being dramatic. It's a traffic ticket. There's a reason why the penalty for a traffic infraction is a fine while the penalty for murder is death. The punishment fits the violation.

There's also no requirement for anyone from out of state to go to court over not using their turn signal. You can choose to pay the fine or you can choose to go to court. If you get found guilty in court then you'll have to pay the fine AND the court costs. Novel idea, huh? Making people pay for the court's time when they lose. So there goes your argument about millions of those taxpayer dollars wasted on court costs. People have the right to go to court when accused of violating the law whether or not it's economical for the government. It would be more economical not to even allow people to go to court on traffic infractions, but there's this thing called the Constitution that prohibits that.

[kazz]

Indicators (turn signals) are the for reason, to let others know what you're doing. It's born from being courteous to other road users, so they in turn can react to your actions. Pretty much a common sense thing. We all have our own tolerance in regard what we will ticket for but that's human nature for you.

Hmmmmmm . . . I feel that instead of all the "what ifs" & pointing out others' failures, perhaps you should take a spoon full of cement & harden up. If this is your biggest issue, then really, go to this site . . . How to build a bridge

[Legoate]

And for the record, turn signal violations are not "wierd violations". Cites are written every day in probably every city for people not using their turn signal. Obviously the officer was somewhere around you when you failed to signal for two turns. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets irritated when the person in front of me slows down for no apparent reason then turns.... like it was too tough to reach up their little arm and pull down the handle to signal.

[Joeyd6]

100' in NY....one must signal to warn other drivers prior to turning.

[tcop733]

I've got 2 tickets in my life. One in High School when I was running late my senior year. School had the one way deal during the morning and afternoon. I thought the one way was over, that's how late I was, until the officer jumped out in the middle of the road and flagged me over. I wasn't upset with the officer, I was upset with myself for being irresponsible and stupid. That officer happened to be one of my FTO's 4 years later. He didn't remember that incident at all, which after writing thousands of tickets myself, I fully understand.

Second one was a month before attending the academy. I was going 52 in a 35. Didn't moan or *****, or have some immature idea that because I had gotten a ticket maybe I should drop the idea of becoming a cop. Just took defensive driving and went on my way.
After reading your comments, ironpony, I find it hard to believe you even fathomed the idea of ever becoming a Peace Officer.
In law enforcement, especially in law enforcement, you must be willing to hold yourself responsible/accountable for your own actions.
You wouldn't last long always trying to find excuses for inappropriate actions.