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  1. #1
    davis.erickson is offline Junior Member davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts
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    Police brutality

    Before I post this I want to clarify, I am not a police officer but I am in no way trying to generalize or paint all cops in a bad light by asking the questions I am going to ask. In another forum I am a member of (a politically focused one) I have been involved in threads focusing on police brutality and I wanted to see what officers think about this. I have seen many videos on youtube where the person who ends up being arrested does not make any violent or threatening actions towards the officers. There are usually in these videos several officers and but one 'victim' (I put 'victim' in quotes because I know that the person likely is being arrested justly). The officers are often much larger in size to the 'victim' so I don't see how he really poses much of a threat. Most of the cases I have seen, or read about, the officers were in fact convicted of something.

    So my questions to you are:

    Does police brutality happen as often as the media has lead me to believe?

    Would you as an officer attempt to cover up for a colleague who has assaulted someone unjustly?

    How do you react when you see news stories about police brutality? Does it depend upon the specifics of the case?

    Do you think beating a non-violant person is justifiable in ANY situation?

    Should officers get the benefit of the doubt in these cases simply because they are officers?

    Are those who are found to be guilty of abusing their power as officers usually done so correctly in your opinion?

    I am not trying to offend any of you with this post. I honestly want to know. I know that most police officers do not abuse there power, I am not trying to say that with this post.

    Thank you in advance for your answers.

  2. #2
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    Does police brutality happen as often as the media has lead me to believe?
    No. Especially on youtube. The general public has no idea of what the force continuum entails or the fact that we can normally use one step above in force than what the suspect is doing. Things can go south very quick for an officer and most videos, if not all, always capture one side of the story.

    Would you as an officer attempt to cover up for a colleague who has assaulted someone unjustly?
    No, and neither would 99% of my counterparts. This isn't the 60s and 70s. A police career is being held to a higher standard, hence why more qualifications and/or education is becoming commonplace when considering a candidate for employment.

    How do you react when you see news stories about police brutality? Does it depend upon the specifics of the case?
    If you honestly knew how often the media got things wrong, then you wouldn't believe jack what you see on tv. If they don't have both sides of the story, they normally go with their own, with a little twist added for ratings.

    Do you think beating a non-violant person is justifiable in ANY situation?
    We don't "beat" anybody. We use force to gain compliance. Depending on the resistance of the suspect will dictate how much force is used to get them restrained. There will be many occasions where the force looked excessive from an unexperienced, uknowledageable, arm-chair quarterback's point of view.

    Should officers get the benefit of the doubt in these cases simply because they are officers?
    We don't get the benefit of the doubt on anything. Anyone in the profession knows this and that's why you rarely see officers making hasty accusations based on reports and/or video of their co-workers who were involved in use of force situations. Any accusation of excessive force is taken serious among any half-way respected agency and investigated extensively, even if the person 100% makes it up because they were pis*ed about being arrested.

    Are those who are found to be guilty of abusing their power as officers usually done so correctly in your opinion?
    Honestly it depends on the department. I've seen departments conduct good investigations and take appropriate action (or no action) and I've also seen departments throw their officers under the bus without any investigating because they're scared of the media and negative publicity.


    Most of the cases I have seen, or read about, the officers were in fact convicted of something.
    Situations where officers were so out of line they were criminally charged are few and far between. They literally account for a fraction of 1% of the officers in this country. You normally see these stories on TV because they get better ratings than the countless acts the hundreds of thousands of other good officers perform every day. Complaints and lawsuits against officers occur every day for things that are completely lawful. If you were to delve into the amount of actions dismissed against officers versus those that are upheld, you would be quite surprised.

  3. #3
    Gutwrench is offline Veteran Member Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute Gutwrench has a reputation beyond repute
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    Does police brutality happen as often as the media has lead me to believe?
    How often are you lead to believe this? For every carefully cropped/edited picture/video portraying a cop doing something questionable there is a multitude of missing info to put the act into context. Whether the acts were eventually deemed good or bad.

    Would you as an officer attempt to cover up for a colleague who has assaulted someone unjustly?
    No, but the key word is "unjustly."

    How do you react when you see news stories about police brutality? Does it depend upon the specifics of the case?
    It depends, some stories make me cringe, but most leave me begging for more information that wasn't included.

    Do you think beating a non-violant person is justifiable in ANY situation?
    What kind of question is this? I live in the real world where things can get real serious real fast where situations call for decisiveness, but this question baffles me.

    Should officers get the benefit of the doubt in these cases simply because they are officers? Honestly, everything I read and hear I take with a grain of salt, almost without exception.

    Are those who are found to be guilty of abusing their power as officers usually done so correctly in your opinion? "Abusing their power" is a broad brush so I don't know. I know some guys have been given days on the beach for violating policy, I know a couple guys who were released during probation for their tendency to jack every situation up. Police brutality is a sexy news topic but it has never been an epidemic during my career.

  4. #4
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    nevermind - box of rocks now on ignore...
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by davis.erickson View Post
    Before I post this I want to clarify, I am not a police officer but I am in no way trying to generalize or paint all cops in a bad light by asking the questions I am going to ask. In another forum I am a member of (a politically focused one) I have been involved in threads focusing on police brutality and I wanted to see what officers think about this. I have seen many videos on youtube where the person who ends up being arrested does not make any violent or threatening actions towards the officers. There are usually in these videos several officers and but one 'victim' (I put 'victim' in quotes because I know that the person likely is being arrested justly). The officers are often much larger in size to the 'victim' so I don't see how he really poses much of a threat. Most of the cases I have seen, or read about, the officers were in fact convicted of something.

    So my questions to you are:

    Does police brutality happen as often as the media has lead me to believe?

    Would you as an officer attempt to cover up for a colleague who has assaulted someone unjustly?

    How do you react when you see news stories about police brutality? Does it depend upon the specifics of the case?

    Do you think beating a non-violant person is justifiable in ANY situation?

    Should officers get the benefit of the doubt in these cases simply because they are officers?

    Are those who are found to be guilty of abusing their power as officers usually done so correctly in your opinion?

    I am not trying to offend any of you with this post. I honestly want to know. I know that most police officers do not abuse there power, I am not trying to say that with this post.

    Thank you in advance for your answers.
    I think my colleagues have answered your questions satisfactorily, I hope you make a passing grade...
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  6. #6
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    One of the most famous incidents involving videotaped police brutality was the Rodney King incident. Many people wonder how the police were not convicted.

    Keep in mind that even with that video, you are only seeing one part of the video. The entire video was almost ten minutes long but most have only seen about 15 seconds. You are only seeing video at night. You can not hear what anyone is saying including King. You can not see what his strength was prior to the incident. King was drunk and just lead police on a high speed pursuit. He began fighting with Officers the minute he got out of the car. One of the Officers was prepared to use deadly force and shoot King, but backup Officers arrived just in time. At least one witness testified that King was on the ground laughing when it was happening. I am not trying to say if the King incident was, or was not, police brutality. I am only saying that in a very popular video, there is more to a video than the sense of sight.
    One Big Ass Mistake America

  7. #7
    Curt581's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davis.erickson View Post
    The officers are often much larger in size to the 'victim' so I don't see how he really poses much of a threat.
    Do you believe all officers are always physically larger than the people they arrest?

    Do you honestly believe that physical size has any real bearing on whether or not a suspect is a threat?

    Might there be other factors that could change whether or not someone would be viewed as dangerous?

    Does police brutality happen as often as the media has lead me to believe?
    Why are you allowing the media to lead you to believe anything?

    Would you as an officer attempt to cover up for a colleague who has assaulted someone unjustly?
    How would you define "unjustly"? If a suspect refuses to comply with an arrest and responds with physical resistance, because HE thinks he did nothing wrong, is that "unjust"?

    How do you react when you see news stories about police brutality? Does it depend upon the specifics of the case?
    Why do you think we'd react any differently than you would? Are we not people, too?

    How do you react when you read of assaults and murders of police officers?

    Do you think beating a non-violant person is justifiable in ANY situation?
    How do you define "non-violent"? If someone passively resists being arrested, are we not allowed to overcome that resistance?

    Why do you categorize what may be a lawful Use of Force as a "beating"? Do you know the difference?

    Should officers get the benefit of the doubt in these cases simply because they are officers?
    What do you think? If someone is willing to fight with police, do you think they would refrain from lying to us?

    Should we assume anyone making a complaint against a police officer is telling the full and unvarnished truth?

  8. #8
    davis.erickson is offline Junior Member davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts davis.erickson is infamous around these parts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt581 View Post
    Do you believe all officers are always physically larger than the people they arrest?
    NO of course I don't believe that. I was just saying in several of the videos I have seen
    Do you honestly believe that physical size has any real bearing on whether or not a suspect is a threat?
    Well I would assume it would. I am a rather large guy and I know that a significantly smaller person poses less threat to me than someone someone my own size.
    Might there be other factors that could change whether or not someone would be viewed as dangerous?

    Yes, of course.

    Why are you allowing the media to lead you to believe anything?

    So far it is the only place I've been able to get my information. It only shows one side of the story. That's why I posted here.

    How would you define "unjustly"? If a suspect refuses to comply with an arrest and responds with physical resistance, because HE thinks he did nothing wrong, is that "unjust"?

    Well I assume it depends how resistant he is and how physical the officers are. They can take it too far I believe.

    Why do you think we'd react any differently than you would? Are we not people, too?
    But you have a different perspective than I do since you are an officer yourself.
    How do you react when you read of assaults and murders of police officers?

    It is a terrible thing when anyone is murdered, regardless of their profession.

    How do you define "non-violent"? If someone passively resists being arrested, are we not allowed to overcome that resistance?
    I think that you can overcome the resistance but that it can be taken to far and excessive force can be used. This is only common sense.
    Why do you categorize what may be a lawful Use of Force as a "beating"? Do you know the difference?

    I think it is ambiguous. I know very little about this, that is why I am asking.

    What do you think? If someone is willing to fight with police, do you think they would refrain from lying to us?
    No, they would probably lie to you.
    Should we assume anyone making a complaint against a police officer is telling the full and unvarnished truth?
    No, people lie. I do think every complaint should be taken seriously and be investigated, as I assume it is.
    I have one further question that I wish I had asked in my first post. When a police officer does use force that is excessive and unnecessary to apprehend someone why does he or she do it?

  9. #9
    Curt581's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davis.erickson View Post
    I have one further question that I wish I had asked in my first post. When a police officer does use force that is excessive and unnecessary to apprehend someone why does he or she do it?
    ...and THAT question reveals your preconceived opinions about the differences between lawful uses of force and so-called "police brutality".

    By asking 'why do they do it', you assume it was a premediated decision.

    I'm bailing before this gets out of hand.

    Edited to add: Just to avoid any further assumptions, *I* personally, never use excessive force. In fact, I never use any force. If an arrestee decides he doesn't want to go to jail, I just say "Darn, okay, never mind".
    Last edited by Curt581; 01-01-11 at 12:43 PM.

  10. #10
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    I suggest you check this out instead of coming on here attempting to bait law enforcement officers.

    “In 1989 the United States Supreme Court held that determinations about the Constitutional appropriateness of police force usage – deadly or not – must be “judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.” While the Court’s ruling established a clear standard about the basis for judging officers’ actions – i.e., the perspective of a reasonable police officer on the scene – we know little about the sorts of factors that might frame the perspective of reasonable police officers during situations in which they apply force. This paper draws on the results of a study that examined officers’ cognitive, emotional, and perceptual reactions during situations in which they employed deadly force against citizens to expand our understanding of what constitutes a reasonable officers’ perspective during the tense, uncertain moments when the decision to employ deadly force is made.”



    Police Officers’ Cognitive, Emotional, and Perceptual Reactions During Lethal Force Situations: Informing the Reasonableness Standard
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  11. #11
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    Troll!



    Be Safe elsewhere with your trolling!
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by davis.erickson View Post
    I have one further question that I wish I had asked in my first post. When a police officer does use force that is excessive and unnecessary to apprehend someone why does he or she do it?
    Why does anyone make any bad choice (police related or otherwise)? We're not mind readers, kid.

    Asked, answered and moving on.


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    ANYONE can be a SERIOUS threat to the safety of a police officer.

    People can and do carry guns, knives and other weapons. Even a small gun ( like a .22 ) or a small knife can be DEADLY. I don't beat people up but I will NOT let them get the chance to get lucky. I have a family that I am repsonsible for and they depend on me.

    I am not under any obligation to fail to defend myself or someone else. I will do so EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T AGREE.

    I have been kicked in the face , kicked in the chest , knocked to the ground , had my shoulder , hand , arm and knee injured all in dealing with people who were resisting arrest. Do I have to let myself get hurt ( or worse) before it is OK to take control of the situation ?

    I truly have a job that CANNOT EVER be fully appreciated or understood until someone who doesn't do what I do has walked in my shoes. And I am a towering 5ft 6 175 lbs. I also have NEVER been sued in 25 years. And YES I have injured people while arresting them.
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  14. #14
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    Does police brutality happen as often as the media has lead me to believe?
    In ten years I have seen two incidents that I would call police brutality...both by the same officer (who was a disgrace to the badge). Both were against defenseless prisoners, one who was in handcuffs and had been sprayed with OC. The latter incident was a male I had just arrested. During the arrest I kicked him in the head and stand by that decision given the extended circumstances. Given the story...the whole story... a kick in the head was appropriate. I was outnumbered and attacked from behind by two drug affected thugs with virtually no warning. The brutaity occurred back at the watch house where an officer who was not at the scene wanted to come down and shove my prisoner. He ended up getting charged with assault and I testified against him. His shove ( ahip and shoulder to the prisoner's chest) was assault. My kick to his the same offender's head, was not. It is all the circumstances that need to be taken into consideration.

    Would you as an officer attempt to cover up for a colleague who has assaulted someone unjustly?
    No. My first court appearance as a rookie was against the senior officer mentioned above.

    How do you react when you see news stories about police brutality? Does it depend upon the specifics of the case?
    Most the time I am annoyed that some idiot who has never walked in my shoes or had to do my job gets to call it brutality when in fact most times it is not. most people out there, I suspect you included, have never had to restrain a person who is drug affected and not willing to comply. Keeping in mind what might look bad is not necessarily as violent as it appears. And keeping in mind that while having to restrain someone I also have to do so while complying with laws and rules, where as ther person I am restraining does not.

    Do you think beating a non-violant person is justifiable in ANY situation?
    NO

    Should officers get the benefit of the doubt in these cases simply because they are officers?
    No. They should be treated as fairly as anyone else, however most of the time they are accused of police brutality by people who have seen ten seconds of a three minute video and have no idea what they are talking about.

    Are those who are found to be guilty of abusing their power as officers usually done so correctly in your opinion?
    NO. The officer I testified against got ff. In my opinion he should have got the sack, and gone to jail. However the vctims in this matter were all so drunk and were long term criminals so they presented as poor victims in court. None of them remembered the incident at all and it was MY testimony that got him charged not the victims. The video of the incident went missing from the property room...and guess who the property officer was?? THe officer who was charged!!! It came down to my word against his and he was a senior officer and had much more experience in court (which can be intimidating especialy your first time and expecially when it is against a senior officer.)

    I am not trying to offend any of you with this post. I honestly want to know. I know that most police officers do not abuse there power, I am not trying to say that with this post.
    Well sorry kiddo, but you have offended me. You come across as though you suspect this is common when in fact it is usually the opposite and officers are getting hurt on a daily basis protecting society from these animals.

    Things you should consider....

    David BARR was a cop in South Australia. He and his partner, Jamie tried to arrest a drug affected male. The male was not big. I do not know how big David was, but Jamie was a monster of a man. Hi nickname was Lurch. The offender turned violent and both officers resorted to batons to try and get him to comply. He had been battoned several times and was on the ground when Jamie tried to hold him down while David applied cuffs. The male got a hand free and drove a small paring knife with a two inch blade into David's heart, killing him. Don't tell me or David BARR's family, or Jamie (who had to live with the incident) that being big and outnumbering the offender is a guarantee of winning a fight for your life.

    If you really want to test this feel free to find someone you don't know and walk up to them and try and retrain them. You say you're abig guy, give it a go. Let us know how it goes. BTW, make sure that you only use what looks nice to a camera to get the job done, whereas they can stab you, shoot you, bite you, spit on you, kick you, get their mate's to come in from behind if you take too long. Letus know how you go if you live.
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  15. #15
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    By the way, when you got a suspect who is refusing to be cuffed, and he is on the ground when he suddenly reaches for his waistband, does a video camera across the street see that? Nope. But, the video sure does see a fist strike to the temple area of the suspect in an attempt to distract him from his movement.

    I abhor any type of intentional excessive force and have taken action against law enforcement officers who have knowingly crossed the line. With that said, I also abhor and have low tolerance for those who lack objectivity and arbitrarily label actions as police brutality without the benefit of analyzing the totality of circumstances.
    "No one is compelled to choose the profession of a police officer, but having chosen it, everyone is obligated to perform its duties and live up to the high standards of its requirements." ~ President Calvin Coolidge

    “The nobility of policing demands the noblest of character.” ~ Dr. Stephen R. Covey

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