Possesion of Lockpicks in Wisconsin

[Ull115]

Hello,

I am posting on here because I have a question regarding the possession of lockpicks in Wisconsin. I am a hobbyist lock picker meaning that I pick locks that I own for fun. I have not had any trouble with the law in the past but it has occurred to me that most LEO's are probably unfamiliar with Locksport. So I am wondering how the situation would be handled if I were stopped with them on my person along with my lock collection, for example traveling to or from a Locksport meeting.

I know from reading the state law that supposedly their has to be intent for them to be considered burglary tools but I have received conflicting answers whether or not you show intent by possessing them. For instance most of the people online that I have to talked to, say that you should be okay so long as you are only picking your own locks. Alternatively I have heard from a locksmith with 30+ years experience that if you have them on you and you are not a locksmith that it is a for sure felony.

That raises another problem, what constitutes a locksmith in Wisconsin? Unfortunately we have no licensing for locksmiths in this state; if we did have licensing I would definitely get licensed. But as a result of this I am really unsure who would be considered a locksmith and who would not. For example I service all the locks for the company I work for, but its mostly an extension of my hobby and I don't have a lock shop or anything. So to avoid trouble I have considered joining a professional locksmith organization like the ALOA but that costs quite a bit of money.

So I guess what I am asking is if you stopped me with both my lockpicks and my lock collection would I be in danger of losing either (losing my lock collection would devastate me, some of them are irreplaceable) or worse yet being charged with a felony? And also lets say we were having a Locksport meeting in a coffee house with permission of the owner, would that be a problem? Thanks in advance.

[scott715us]

943.12

943.12 Possession of burglarious tools. Whoever has in personal possession any device or instrumentality intended, designed or adapted for use in breaking into any depository designed for the safekeeping of any valuables or into any building or room, with intent to use such device or instrumentality to break into a depository, building or room, and to steal therefrom, is guilty of a Class I felony.

There are the words "with intent" in the Wisconsin statute, but it seems to me that interpretation is going to be up to the LEO making the contact with you and ultimately the District Attorney in charge of prosecuting the case. Seems to me it's at the discretion of the arresting officers when it comes to "intent." There may be officers out there that play it safe and arrest anyone in possession of "burglary tools." Do you want to take the chance of having a LEO make a decision to arrest you for a felony if these tools are found on you or in your vehicle? I understand it's a hobby, but if you do it at home, then it would be safe to say to keep the tools at home.

If a specific license to be a locksmith is not required in your state, it may just only require a business license on file with the appropriate agencies who oversee/regulate businesses in your area.

[Ull115]

I appreciate your advice.

Many times avoiding travel is not possible, a large component of this hobby is competition (some go as far as the Netherlands for Lockcon) and we frequently get together to practice and swap locks and such.

Is it possible to get a business license though if you really have no intentions of running a business? I mean I wouldn't mind doing professional locksmithing as a business in the future but right now that's just not possible.

[GoDirectly2Jail]

Hello,

I am posting on here because I have a question regarding the possession of lockpicks in Wisconsin. I am a hobbyist lock picker meaning that I pick locks that I own for fun. I have not had any trouble with the law in the past but it has occurred to me that most LEO's are probably unfamiliar with Locksport. So I am wondering how the situation would be handled if I were stopped with them on my person along with my lock collection, for example traveling to or from a Locksport meeting.

I know from reading the state law that supposedly their has to be intent for them to be considered burglary tools but I have received conflicting answers whether or not you show intent by possessing them. For instance most of the people online that I have to talked to, say that you should be okay so long as you are only picking your own locks. Alternatively I have heard from a locksmith with 30+ years experience that if you have them on you and you are not a locksmith that it is a for sure felony.

That raises another problem, what constitutes a locksmith in Wisconsin? Unfortunately we have no licensing for locksmiths in this state; if we did have licensing I would definitely get licensed. But as a result of this I am really unsure who would be considered a locksmith and who would not. For example I service all the locks for the company I work for, but its mostly an extension of my hobby and I don't have a lock shop or anything. So to avoid trouble I have considered joining a professional locksmith organization like the ALOA but that costs quite a bit of money.

So I guess what I am asking is if you stopped me with both my lockpicks and my lock collection would I be in danger of losing either (losing my lock collection would devastate me, some of them are irreplaceable) or worse yet being charged with a felony? And also lets say we were having a Locksport meeting in a coffee house with permission of the owner, would that be a problem? Thanks in advance.

I tried to learn more about Locksport this morning, and my work computer refused me access.

Your organization's Internet use policy restricts access to this web page at this time.

Reason:
The Websense category "Illegal or Questionable" is filtered.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

URL:
Locksport International :: Home

I'm having trouble understanding the need for such a group. Is there also an organization for car hotwiring?

[mcsap]

USPS wont allow lockpick tools to be mailed through them.

I suspect that if you transported them in your TRUNK , you would be much better off than laying on the seat next to you.

My state prohibits the possession of them with the intent to employ them criminally OR under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for lawful uses it may have.

So it would depend on YOU , HOW you carry them , WHEN you have them , WHERE you have them and the officers belief as to WHY you have them.

Seems like a gray area so use your head.

[DCF]

Another suggestion would be to carry literature etc about your hobby. Perhaps a "membership" if there is an organization. I have a friend that participates in the "locksport" a fellow Trooper. As others have stated, most law relative picks have words similiar to "intent". One would think absent some evidence of illegal intent, in addition to your clean recored, your explanation and perhaps literature, an officer would feel a lot more comfortable with your explanation.

DFrost

[Ull115]

Thanks for all the great responses so far, I have always wanted to discuss this with an officer but have never had the opportunity until now.

USPS wont allow lockpick tools to be mailed through them.

I suspect that if you transported them in your TRUNK , you would be much better off than laying on the seat next to you.

Everyone within the community is aware of the USPS restriction so we do not use USPS.

I like the trunk idea; I have already been doing this as I figured you know when transporting a firearm it has to be cased and in the trunk, might as well do the same here.

Seems like a gray area so use your head.

Best advice anyone has ever given me.

Another suggestion would be to carry literature etc about your hobby. Perhaps a "membership" if there is an organization. I have a friend that participates in the "locksport" a fellow Trooper. As others have stated, most law relative picks have words similiar to "intent". One would think absent some evidence of illegal intent, in addition to your clean recored, your explanation and perhaps literature, an officer would feel a lot more comfortable with your explanation.

No one has suggested this to me yet so thank you. I am in the process of joining TOOOL (The Open Organization Of Lockpickers) US Chapter so I could definitely bring some stuff from them. Ultimately I want to become a Certified Registered Locksmith through the ALOA (Associated Locksmiths of America) but like I said there is quite a bit of money involved in that, so that is not going to happen any time soon.

[Curt581]

943.12

There are the words "with intent" in the Wisconsin statute, but it seems to me that interpretation is going to be up to the LEO making the contact with you and ultimately the District Attorney in charge of prosecuting the case. Seems to me it's at the discretion of the arresting officers when it comes to "intent." There may be officers out there that play it safe and arrest anyone in possession of "burglary tools." Do you want to take the chance of having a LEO make a decision to arrest you for a felony if these tools are found on you or in your vehicle?

Establishing the elements of 943.12, including "intent", is going to depend on the totality of circumstances and the officer's articulation of the facts.

The most common items charged as burglarious tools are pry bars and large screwdrivers. Obviously, simply possessing either of those items is not illegal or restricted in any way, but when you find a subject sneaking or prowling in alleys or between houses, in an area which experienced a series of burglaries, wearing dark clothing and gloves, you can make a case for reasonable suspician and probable cause to detain. Upon stopping and speaking to the subject, you find he doesn't live in the area, he has a pillow case tucked in his belt, and he's got a big screwdriver tucked in his sleeve. It's not hard to show that a reasonable person would believe this person is a burglar and the screwdriver is intended to be used to break into homes.

On the other hand, just possessing a big screwdriver in a tool box in your car is not going to prove you're a burglar.

Lockpicks are a much less common than a screwdriver. They're tools specifically designed to defeat a security device without using the key. They are tools that enable unauthorized access by their very nature. After all, if you were authorized to open a locked door, you'd have a key, wouldn't you? A reasonable officer would need fewer indicators of "intent" to show those items are kept for nefarious purposes, and are therefore "burglarious tools".

If your purpose for possessing such tools is perfectly innocent, then you wouldn't have any other indicators, like gloves, ski masks, large bags, etc, nor would you be found in the area of closed businesses at odd hours or residential areas where you didn't live and didn't know anyone.... would you?

[Ull115]

Establishing the elements of 943.12, including "intent", is going to depend on the totality of circumstances and the officer's articulation of the facts.

The most common items charged as burglarious tools are pry bars and large screwdrivers. Obviously, simply possessing either of those items is not illegal or restricted in any way, but when you find a subject sneaking or prowling in alleys or between houses, in an area which experienced a series of burglaries, wearing dark clothing and gloves, you can make a case for reasonable suspician and probable cause to detain. Upon stopping and speaking to the subject, you find he doesn't live in the area, he has a pillow case tucked in his belt, and he's got a big screwdriver tucked in his sleeve. It's not hard to show that a reasonable person would believe this person is a burglar and the screwdriver is intended to be used to break into homes.

On the other hand, just possessing a big screwdriver in a tool box in your car is not going to prove you're a burglar.

Lockpicks are a much less common than a screwdriver. They're tools specifically designed to defeat a security device without using the key. They are tools that enable unauthorized access by their very nature. After all, if you were authorized to open a locked door, you'd have a key, wouldn't you? A reasonable officer would need fewer indicators of "intent" to show those items are kept for nefarious purposes, and are therefore "burglarious tools".

If your purpose for possessing such tools is perfectly innocent, then you wouldn't have any other indicators, like gloves, ski masks, large bags, etc, nor would you be found in the area of closed businesses at odd hours or residential areas where you didn't live and didn't know anyone.... would you?

Definitely agree with everything you have said. I very specifically keep the keys to all the locks in my toolbox in the actual locks to prove ownership and yea there is no reason I would be in an unfamiliar place with things such as gloves, ski masks, etc. So I think it boils down to obey the rules of common sense and you should be okay.

I'm having trouble understanding the need for such a group. Is there also an organization for car hotwiring?

I originally was not going to respond to this post because I do not wish to cause any conflict as I understand you do not agree with what I do, which is fine, but I think that it mentions something that does need to be addressed. Why is there a need for such a group? From the outside looking in it is very easy for me to see why this would come up. Basically the problem is consumer overconfidence in a device that is fundamentally flawed.

In many instances locksmiths believe in security through obscurity meaning basically keep it in the trade and everything will be good; however, this has proven to not always be effective as it does not fix the real problem and it is possible for criminals to figure out these exploits often times quite easily. Additionally locksmiths are not always up on the latest and greatest exploits; locks are their job not their hobby, they are primarily their to make money and as a locksmith you do that by selling, rekeying, and masterkeying locks, not sitting around playing with them for hours on end for the pure joy of it. The second issue is often manufacturers of locks are either unaware of issues or unwilling to fix them because they believe that as long as the information about the vulnerability doesn't get out everything is okay. You also have to keep in mind that the manufacturer's R&D departments can only spend so much time and money testing their products, otherwise they would not make a profit.

This is where the Locksport community often comes into play. You basically have a large group of lock experts who spend 3-4 hours a day working for free essentially to find exploits in existing lock systems simply because they think its fun. Often times people in our community literally have a direct line to the manufacturers. We choose to responsibly disclose these exploits to both the manufacturers and those that need to know so that instead of the problem being ignored it gets addressed and patched just like with buggy software. There are some very notable examples of this.

Surely you have heard of or seen a Kwikset Smartkey before, they are becoming very popular due to the fact that a consumer can rekey it themselves in less than 15 seconds. In fact, at this time you can literally not buy anything from Kwikset other than the Smartkey from big box stores like Lowes, Homedepot, and Menards. Now keep in mind this product is being advertised as a Grade 1 deadbolt which supposedly makes it the most secure you can get. Now this goes back to a flaw in the R&D, yes its a brilliant design and I can just picture them developing it:
Engineer 1: So is it pick proof?
Engineer 2: Yup
Engineer 1: Great, is it bump proof?
Engineer 2: You bet.
Engineer 1: Awesome
Engineer 1: Cool, can it be killed with a screwdriver?
Engineer 2: ....****
It turns out, it was discovered and I am not going to go into detail how its done as this is a public forum that the lock, that is quickly becoming the best selling lock in America, could be easily killed with a screwdriver. The manufacturer was made aware of this by a Locksport enthusiast and the product was revised to fix the problem.

Another example, this one is more famous. In 2006 a member of the Locksport community found several very bad flaws with the high security lock offerings from Medeco, a brand that I am sure you have seen at least once. They are used to secure several high profile government institutions and are pretty much the most common high security lock used in North America. Well it turns out, their were ways to both pick and bump this lock which were again brought to the manufacturer so that they could improve their products, thereby increasing the security provided to all the consumers.

Another function of Locksport is to raise awareness of how bad common locks are and to suggest solutions, this isn't so much a problem in Europe where they have a huge lock diversity, but if you live in North America chances are you either have a Kwikset or a Schlage on your door. Now let me ask this why do so many people trust these inferior in the case of Kwikset sometimes as low as $15 locks, to protect all their possessions and their family. Did you know that the highest security lock in the world, literally the only lock to never be picked, the Abloy Protec can be had in deadbolt form for as low as $165. I guess where I am going with this is not many people know about these high security locks as even if you go to the local locksmith they will still recommend the now broken Medeco for roughly the same price or more and its just nice to get the word out that their are other options out there.

Finally I will end this with a brief comment on the importance of security in locks, sometimes your life depends on it. I will do this with something I am sure all of you are familiar with handcuffs. If you are in the US chances are you use either Smith & Wesson or Peerless now lets say a vulnerability were to be discovered in either. The manufacturer probably would not do anything about it unless it became a liability issue and locksmiths generally don't deal with them. So wouldn't it be really nice if a handcuff geek from the Locksport community were to responsibly disclose such information to all law enforcement. Well it turns out some vulnerabilities do exist, their is a perfect handcuff out there (that's fairly cheap too), and a presentation on the subject was given at a recent convention. I believe all law enforcement should see this video, I am not going to link it here as this is a public forum but if you would like to see it please PM me and I will provide the link.

I apologize for this post being so long.

[Joeyd6]

It turns out, it was discovered and I am not going to go into detail how its done as this is a public forum that the lock, that is quickly becoming the best selling lock in America, could be easily killed with a screwdriver.

Yep. I have a tool fomr a certain manufacturer that kills the lock in one second, and stil lets me close the door behind me when I leave and lock so you, the average homewoner would never know I was there.

Did you know that the highest security lock in the world, literally the only lock to never be picked, the Abloy Protec can be had in deadbolt form for as low as $165.

I have pciked their padlocks before. Not easy but doable. I have also seen a regular Abloy Protec lock get picked. It took about a half hour, but it got opened by a the guy (a cop who is a locksmith). Every lock is pickable. Locks are made to keep the doors closed when the wind blows and kids try to get out. That is it.

I apologize for this post being so long.

Don't . We may disagree with you, however your posts are: 1) in English; 2) use proper grammer; 3) are logical; 4) give a fair perspective from the other side; 5) don't personally attack anyone. It reminds me what this place is for when somebody can hold a civil and discussion about their point of view even when it differs from others.

[Curt581]

All pretty much academic, anyway. Locks keep honest people honest. If thieves really want to get in, they will. Good locks might slow 'em down enough to pick a different place to break into, but that's all. If you've got a Kwikset, they'll kick the door. If you've got a Yale or Medeco, they'll pry the jam. If the door is flimsy, they'll smash through it. If it's too heavy to get through, they'll bust through a wall. The most expensive locks Abloy makes won't mean squat when they do this:



As for the handcuffs, we already know Smith and Peerless cuffs have vulnerabilities. More than a one or two, in fact. That's why they teach us that handcuffs are a temporary restraint and non-stop monitoring of a handcuffed arrestee is mandatory. There is no such thing as a "perfect" set of handcuffs. I remember seeing a photo of a set of badly mangled cuffs in an old training manual. They looked like they'd been run over repeatedly by a tracked vehicle, then bent up with boltcutters. The caption read that they'd been placed on a drugged up subject, who managed remove them with his teeth.

[retdetsgt]

All pretty much academic, anyway. Locks keep honest people honest. If thieves really want to get in, they will. Good locks might slow 'em down enough to pick a different place to break into, but that's all. If you've got a Kwikset, they'll kick the door. If you've got a Yale or Medeco, they'll pry the jam. If the door is flimsy, they'll smash through it. If it's too heavy to get through, they'll bust through a wall. The most expensive locks Abloy makes won't mean squat when they do this:

Maybe we have dumber burglars out here, but I can't recall ever seeing burglary where entry was gained by picking a lock. They've always broken something, came in through an unlocked window or something.

My wife is still pissed because I wouldn't let her have glass on either side of the front door when we had this house built. Seen too many where they break that little window, reach in and unlock the deadbolt. And I don't like double keyed deadbolts on entry doors in case of fire or something.

The only time my house was hit, they threw a concrete block through the patio door. Some kinda professional, huh?

[scott715us]

Es

tablishing the elements of 943.12, including "intent", is going to depend on the totality of circumstances and the officer's articulation of the facts.

Ummm, yea, hence why I said discretion of the officer.

[Ull115]

All pretty much academic, anyway. Locks keep honest people honest. If thieves really want to get in, they will. Good locks might slow 'em down enough to pick a different place to break into, but that's all. If you've got a Kwikset, they'll kick the door. If you've got a Yale or Medeco, they'll pry the jam. If the door is flimsy, they'll smash through it. If it's too heavy to get through, they'll bust through a wall. The most expensive locks Abloy makes won't mean squat when they do this:

As for the handcuffs, we already know Smith and Peerless cuffs have vulnerabilities. More than a one or two, in fact. That's why they teach us that handcuffs are a temporary restraint and non-stop monitoring of a handcuffed arrestee is mandatory. There is no such thing as a "perfect" set of handcuffs. I remember seeing a photo of a set of badly mangled cuffs in an old training manual. They looked like they'd been run over repeatedly by a tracked vehicle, then bent up with boltcutters. The caption read that they'd been placed on a drugged up subject, who managed remove them with his teeth.

Okay while I agree that locks are meant to keep honest people out and that if thieves want in they will get in; I take great satisfaction in making that as big a pain in the *** as I can. Let me be clear I am not paranoid someone will break in, this is just my little pet project and I have fun with it. Basically I work for the apartment complex I live in as a maintenance guy, so they pretty much let me do whatever. It starts with my apartment being second floor, that pretty much means they are not driving a truck into it, at least not directly as was shown in that video. My deadbolt is an Abloy Protec with the expanding bolt option. What that means is when it locks ball bearings come out of the bolt actually attaching it to the bolt box on the jamb securely. So basically that rules out prying the jam completely. For kick resistance we have a steel door and a steel jamb with upgraded hinges and 3 1/2" screws going into the stud. That takes care of those two attacks and even if the Abloy is pickable it is really hard to do and bumping doesn't work with that kind of lock. Now you may say but wait don't you have to provide a working key to the office? Well yes I do however the lock in my lever set is a modified Schlage I have rigged up to be essentially a mechanical alarm as to whether the key I gave the office has been used without my knowledge, this was accomplished using construction keying. The last thing as far as the front door is concerned was I put a spin collar on my peep hole so that is could not be torqued out and just for good measure I used threadlocker too. Then with my patio door I figured no one should legitimately be trying to unlock that door from the outside since it is 2nd floor; so I left the cylinder in the Schlage lock, I just disconnected the linkage to the bolt so if someone picks it or even uses the correct key they are going to be sorely disappointed when it doesn't open. Lastly I put security film on the windows + those little tabs that prevent them from being slid open. Now you may wonder what I would do if I accidentally locked myself out, well I purposely left one flaw in the system, the Schlage on my porch can be drilled out. So really the only way someone is getting in here is if they go through a wall, the ceiling, or the floor and well if they are that determined, I might just offer them a beer while they are robbing me. lol

Its good that they teach you guys handcuffs are just a temporary restraint; I had heard that before but its good to see that, that actually is the case.

Okay I will acknowledge their are no "perfect" handcuffs; however, the South Korean Yuil Y-01K comes pretty darn close. We are talking nickel plated steel with silicon coating for his or her comfort; the teeth are split into two rows so that seriously hampers shimming and even if you use a split shim they have a metal bar that redirects your shim away, if you somehow manage to get past all that they have this wheel that just destroys shims; they have 2 pawls and you need a non-standard key with a split in the middle to open them; additionally you have a diagonal key hole all but making picking impossible. In my mind that's about as perfect as your going to get. =)

Maybe we have dumber burglars out here, but I can't recall ever seeing burglary where entry was gained by picking a lock. They've always broken something, came in through an unlocked window or something.

I apologize for not being able to cite my source but I once read that only 2% of burglaries involved lockpicks; the vast majority consisted of kick ins, pry ins, broken windows, or getting someone to answer the door.

Btw we have wandered slightly off topic but that is okay, so far this has been a great discussion.

[GoDirectly2Jail]

I originally was not going to respond to this post because I do not wish to cause any conflict as I understand you do not agree with what I do, which is fine, but I think that it mentions something that does need to be addressed. Why is there a need for such a group? From the outside looking in it is very easy for me to see why this would come up. Basically the problem is consumer overconfidence in a device that is fundamentally flawed.

Believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be an a$$... well, maybe I was, just a little. I was just having a hard time understanding the need for such an orgainization. I appreciate the time you took to answer and educate. It's like penetration testing of a website or network - the goal is to expose flaws. I'm down with that.