Ethics/Deadly Force Question

[ferriscj24]

This came up in our Patrol class in the academy tonight....any LEO's that want to answer...feel free....

1) You make a traffic stop, you suspect a DUI...Suspect gets out of vehicle, starts telling you to F*** off and whatever else he deems appropriate, then decides to take a nice big spit directly into your face. What do you do? Keep in mind, dash cams are right on you and you have your pocket recorder on....

2) You make another traffic stop. It is 3am and nobody else in sight. You approach the vehicle, which contains 2 occupants. They both get out of the car as you approach and begin to physically attack you. They dont have weapons. What do you do? Taser and/or pepper spray either cant be used or failed to work the way you intended them to to stop them....is deadly force merited?
What if you are on the ground and they are pounding on you?

Thanks for the input...Ive made my decisions...just looking for others who may or may not have experienced these...

[Norm357]

1. Perp gets decked

2. Disparity of force dictates that I can use deadly force in that situation.

[mcsap]

1. Assault with bodily fluids. Fel 3 on a police officer. Cuff and stuff, if he is DUI , take care of that too.

2. If the LEO can demonstrate that he was in fear of serious imminent bodily injury or death, he/she can use whatever level of force is necessary to stop the threat. Including deadly force. Inasmuch as the offenders are attacking a uniformed and armed police officer, they are showing their absoulute disregard for authority and the safety of a police officer which raises the seriousness of their attack to a level well above a similar assault of an unarmed civilian at random.

[Norm357]

:D mcasp knows all!

[mcsap]

Aw shucks Normy, I was just answering a simple question.

[ferriscj24]

I figured these would be simple....mcsap-- You told me what you would charge the guy with for spitting on you....what would you do BEFORE you cuff and stuff him? Nothing? Wipe it and say turn around sir,...or take Norm's approach?

[Darin]

#1 I don't know if it's a felony to spit on a cop in VA. or not but I would cuff him and if he kept spitting I'd pull his shirt over his head.


#2 If I was scared for my life and felt I was in danger I would use deadly force. Even if it's just 1 person and they have you on the ground, and not even getting or grabbing your weapon, can kill you by hitting you.

[Switchback]

Wipe it off? That's afterwards. He gets cuffed, probably from the prone position... camera or no camera.

And what mscap said for the 2nd scenario.

[mcsap]

Assaulting a police officer is a FELONY. I wouldn't be pleasant nor polite, regardless of any video cams. I am in NO way advocating or insinuating that I would "beat this person up". A person who has the audacity and the intent to assault a police officer by bodily fluids is a THREAT to officer safety. He would be grabbed IMMEDIATELY, handcuffed in a manner that would insure my safety and his compliance and than I would wipe my face or whatever on HIS shirt. This WOULD NOT be a deadly force situation from what you have described but I wouldn't be asking him " sir, would you please assume the position ?"

I have previously told people who perhaps were going to throw up in my car that I will use their shirt to clean it up. My last one gave me fair warning and I pulled over and let him puke in the grass.

[Darin]

Oh, and I wouldn't punch the #1 guy especially if a cameras rolling. It would take everything I have NOT to punch the guy.

[Norm357]

Police officers are allowed to punch people in order to take them into custody. Cameras be damned, if you can articulate the reason you punched the perp. People always forget that.



edited to add: A punch is not beating someone up.

[mcsap]

The WORST injury I ever caused to someone was dislocating his shoulder. This was a drunk I was trying to walk into his house after a cab dropped him off and he insisted that it wasn't his house. ( I had arrested him before and new it was his) , he wanted to fight and I took him down on the sidewalk, he cushioned my fall with his right shoulder.

This was about 12 years ago and to this day, he smiles and greets me when he sees me on the street. He knows he screwed up and I harbor no ill will against him.

[Norm357]

:D DC that's what I said.

[Darin]

Now in the course of me cuffing him he may accidentally hit his head on the pavement.
And possibly the side of the car. And my knee may accidentally break his nose. LMAO hehehe

[scootsmo]

I would say that the cameras would have no effect on me in this situation and have actually had someone do this to me a few times, although no cameras were present. I used force that was "within department guidelines." In this case, he would have lots and lots of problems. I would be allowed, in my department to use close handed strikes, kicks, knee strikes, and even my asp to allow me to gain control and effect the arrest and trust me, I might have to use all.