Your views on hate crimes

[Aussie George]

Sounds pretty similar as what happened here, well the result anyway.

Misguided fools trying to fix a problem, most likely to make themselves feel better rather than actually doing the right thing, and in reality creating a monster.

30 years ago I lived in a remote outback area near a small town called Oodnadatta. Large Aboriginal community and most could barely speak English. Someone from the town had been through and seen the "appalling conditions" the "poor black folk" lived in and decided to throw a heap of money at fixing the problem. They shipped in a whole heap of brand new homes. Erected them, equipped them with the latest in kitchens and all the bells and whistles. They did not bother to consult what those "poor black folk" really needed or wanted and in a matter of 12 months every house was destroyed. They tore the guts out of them to light their fires in the back yard, tore the tin from the fences to build lean-to's and lived in the yards instead of the house. They had never needed "modern houses" before and didn't know what all the fuss was about or even how to use the kitchen stoves. One guy knew enough to know that you use the stove to cook in, so he lit his camp fire in it and blew the gas lines apart and his house as well.

That was 30 years ago and there are still people whinging about the state of the Aboriginal communities and how appalling the conditions are. Well throwing money at is not helping. Teaching them to live by "modern" ways is not helping.

I don't have any answers, but pushing all "our" ideals and processes on them is not working, that's for sure. And throwing money at them is not the way either.


In the early 90's I had the pleasure of travelling to the far north tip of Queensland (the top right corner of Oz as you look at a map). The road is dirt from about Cairns and it was a three day drive to the north tip from there. This is real remote area. Think Alaska with tropics. Jungle, snakes, crocs, pigs, etc

We stopped at a place, I think it was Laura or Coen. I was in the Army and we were all in Land Rovers with cam uniforms on and rifles etc. We walked into this place that was the local service station/grocery store/takeaway food/bar all in a building that was also the only house in town. We had not been there long and this Aboriginal guy and his woman came in.

We all got to talking. He had no idea what an Army was, had only ever been as far south as Cairns and that was in the early 70's. He reckoned in those days you had to walk too far for fire wood so he only stayed a few days and came home. He knew of a town called Townsville and had no idea of a place called Sydney or Melbourne.

He had no concept of "australia" and this was just the place where he lived. His whole world stretched from the hills in the distance to the river in the east and the coast to the west. He had a vague 20 year old memory of a town to the south that was too big and complicated back in the 70's for him to understand.

He and his woman lived in a lean-to that he had built on the outskirts of town out of tin and wood. He had just been hunting and when we drove past his house later on the way out of town he was hanging the meat from a tree. He was happy as a pig in mud. He talked to us for two hours before saying "Well got a lot to do today so I had better go. Haven't got time to sit and talk." - that was after two hours.

The only words his woman said were "Pretty hot. Wish I'd worn shoes." It was over 120 degrees out!!!

These two knew nothing of welfare, or gas stoves, traffic, crime, etc etc. They were just happy living out their lives in the bush. He also showed no sign of racism towards us. BTW he could not work out who we were and just assumed we were hunters because we had rifles and wore cams. He could not comprehend the concept of an Army. He just had no reference to it.

That was in 1991. I will always remember that guy and his woman...and will always be a little envious of him.



I hope some good meaning do-gooder managed to find him and build him a home and educate his kids properly and teach him how to cook properly. They could have ecnouraged him to move into a real town and not live like a savage. I am sure he could have found true happiness then.

[Switchback]

Thanks, George.
I really enjoyed that story and it really does speak volumes to how we are often to eager to impose our own views of happiness on others who have very well already found their version of it.

[retdetsgt]

I hope some good meaning do-gooder managed to find him and build him a home and educate his kids properly and teach him how to cook properly. They could have ecnouraged him to move into a real town and not live like a savage. I am sure he could have found true happiness then.

The same thing has happened here on Indian Reservations a few hundred times. The feds have gone in and built housing w/o consulting the people and asking what they wanted. I recall one reservation in N. Mexico where in the 50's the feds came in and build a bunch of houses facing South.

This particular tribe always had their homes facing North for the wind and Lord knows what other reasons. The houses sat vacant until they finally deteriorated.

Washington has always thought they knew better what people needed than the people themselves. Still do.

[Creeker]

In this area we have the Dark skinned Blacks, the Light skinned Blacks, and then we have what is called "Red" Blacks... I think they have some Indian in them, but I'm not certain. Anyhow, in some communities, they all hate each other, so I wonder how those hate crimes would work?

Most of our person vs person crime is either black on white or black on "other" black, neither of which qualifies as a hate crime.

Its my belief that there are more than a few crimes that are labeled "Hate Crime" by minority groups that only happen to involve a minority, when there were other motivating issues in play than the minority issue.

[SnapShawt]

I think hate crime legislation is absolutely useless and needless. I don't care if you victimize someone because of his color or just because you wanted the money he had on him. If you steal from him, you steal from him. If you kill him, you kill him. The punishment should be the same regardless of the motive I believe.

Think about it. Say Jack kills John. Consider one scenario in which he kills him while robbing him, and another in which he kills him because say he's black. Tell me exactly what makes any of those "less worse" or "worse" than the other? "Well sir, see, in one case, he killed him for his money, in the other he killed him just because of the color of his skin and that's clearly way worse!!!!" Really? Why? What makes it worse? "Well, because it's intolerant! The other guy could have chosen not be carrying any money anyway while one couldn't help what he was! It just is! It's worse!" No, it's not. A life was ended in either case. I could give two flips about the motive.

Hate crime legislation started popping up as the result of politicians finding a fool-proof way to look good to the public. It is also extraordinarily difficult to actually prove to obtain the enhanced punishment. I just think the penalty for committing a crime should be the same regardless of motive.

[pac201]

What happened here was LBJ created the Great Society which was intended as a safety net of welfare until people could get on their feet. What happened was it gave people just enough money for doing nothing that they could survive if they supplemented it just a bit by a little bit of crime. There wasn't much incentive to pull yourself out of it and particularly when there was still racial prejudice when you left your neighborhood.

Included in the package was aid to dependent children which paid women so much money for each child in the house as long as the father wasn't living there. You can see what that encouraged and it pretty much demolished the traditional family in a lot of the African American community. Now you have a lot of fatherless kids growing up. We called them "garden kids". They were fed and watered and that was about all. They pretty much grew up on the streets. Of course many became thugs and even those that didn't are more or less unemployable because they have no education to speak of. The schools were scared to hold them accountable so most went through school without having to learn anything.

Meanwhile, the feds came in and set up programs that poured money into the neighborhoods, but did nothing to help people for the future. Charlatans from the area scooped up the federal money and stole the government blind, but legally. White bureaucrats thought they were being noble by giving them all this money that did nothing but perpetuate the problem.

I watched people go from teaching their kids work ethic and how to get a job to teaching them how to go on government assistance and how to scream to get what you want. And we have no one to blame but ourselves for setting up that goofy system. IMO, it played hell with a couple of generations of poor people of all races. I've yet to see a social service program ran by the government that didn't have all sorts of unintended consequences.

Somewhere in the attic, there's a thesis I wrote on the subject many years ago. It wasn't popular with my sociology professors, I can tell you that.

I knew I liked you for a reason!!!

[retdetsgt]

Its my belief that there are more than a few crimes that are labeled "Hate Crime" by minority groups that only happen to involve a minority, when there were other motivating issues in play than the minority issue.

I had to show that there was absolutely no other reason for the attack other than the race, etc. If the victim did just about anything to provoke it other than breathing, it wasn't a hate crime.

I spent a lot of time explaining that to people who thought they were victims of one.

[BJJVad]

How is concealing a knife a felony, yet concealing a gun is a misdemeanor?

Wait, what was the question again?

[Cat_Doc]

I am fairly sure that most, if not all states, like Arizona, have increased punishment for crimes committed by known criminal street gang members? Is there a valid argument to remove that enhanced punishment from the book?

I also assume that other states, like Arizona, maintain increased punishment for crimes such as physical assaults/murder against minor children, vulnerable adults, public educators, medical personnel, officers of the court and law enforcement officers?

I believe there would be an immediate and very strong protest against prohibiting increased punishment because of the aforementioned “class” of the victim? I know I would raise hell.

As mentioned by my esteemed colleague, a random assault against someone minding their own business and simply walking down the street is already addressed in criminal codes. However, if it is a criminal street gang doing the assault as part of an initiation; enhanced punishment is reasonable and prudent and we sure don’t hear many people arguing against that with the exception of defendants and their attorney.

An assault against someone minding their business and simply walking down the street directly committed because of the color of their skin, their choice of religion or sexual preference; calls for enhanced punishment and I believe that enhanced punishment is reasonable and prudent.

Of course, this is my view; and my opinion will not even get you a cup of coffee.