Securing Weapons in Texas Psychiatric Hospitals

[retdetsgt]

Originally Posted by Piggy

I
I'm pretty sure they don't let the patients carry knives around the hospital. My guess is someone got it in. Keep in mind, they can get any kind of weapon and/or drugs into just about any prison or jail in the United States with the exception of maybe Gitmo. I wouldn't want to give up my gun either. If you have a bunch of unarmed cops, what is your plan to respond to an incident like this?

From the article, it sounds like this was probably an out patient visiting a doctor's office in a hospital. That's indicated by the fact it was in her office in a "medical building" and the off duty deputy was armed. Most hospitals around here have medical offices within the hospital building that are not part of the hospital per se.

[Safety Steve]

Is there a law prohibiting a peace officer in uniform from entering any place while armed? Why would you want to disarm a peace officer with a law. That would prohibit a peace officer from ever helping with a riot. I understand doing it with policy, but law? Most laws in Texas are written based on what a reasonable prudent person would do. a reasonable prudent person would not disarm a peace officer with a law. Call me, "Spock" if you like, because that is illogical. But then again, I'm just logical. Be Safe.

[Arrachion]

Originally Posted by Piggy

If you have a bunch of unarmed cops, what is your plan to respond to an incident like this?

A situation such as a patient with a knife stabbing a doctor would be considered an "extreme circumstance" in which armed officers could enter the psychiatric hospital.

[Curt581]

Originally Posted by Arrachion

A situation such as a patient with a knife stabbing a doctor would be considered an "extreme circumstance" in which armed officers could enter the psychiatric hospital.

Don't you mean "... an extreme circumstance in which an armed officer could seek permission to enter, then wait until a decision is made, then receive permission, then enter the psychiatric hospital"?

The doctor's body will be stiff and cold by that time.

[Curt581]

Originally Posted by Safety Steve

Is there a law prohibiting a peace officer in uniform from entering any place while armed?

Why yes, there is. No only jails and correctional facilities, but also Federal Courthouses.

At least, in my area.

[retdetsgt]

Originally Posted by Safety Steve

Is there a law prohibiting a peace officer in uniform from entering any place while armed?

There's no law like that in Oregon. We only have one state mental hospital now, the rest are private and they make their own policy. It's pretty rare when we are asked to go in one. The state has it's own security and I would suspect OSP would take any calls there. And I have no idea what their policy is.

For a while, one regular hospital decided that guns wouldn't be allowed in their ER. At the time, it was located outside the city limits and I assume the county honored that. I got a call to it one night to take a report of something that happened in the city and they told me I had to disarm. There is no way on God's green earth that I'm going to walk around a hospital ER in uniform with no gun. I'm not a fanatic about guns, but there's a limit to my good nature. I told the receptionist, the nurse and then the doc that I wasn't coming in and the patient could call the police when they were released.

I went on to tell them that if it were a suspect in their ER, there would take a lot of staff to stop me and as many officers as required. I don't know what happened after that, but after we annexed that area, they no longer had the policy.

I'm not really surprised the S.O. went along with it, at that time the sheriff was appointed by the board of commissioners and it was real touchy feely at the top.

[BP348]

Originally Posted by Safety Steve

Is there a law prohibiting a peace officer in uniform from entering any place while armed?

I don't know about a law but I can think of a few right off the top of my head. Prisons and Jails.

I would consider a psych hospital about the same as a jail, it's not like those people are free to leave whenever they like either.

When I was still with USAF I had to take a service member to a local psych hospital for an exam. I know I had to disarm before I could bring the guy into the psych area. That was in Florida and I was standing next to a tampa officer who had done the same so it wasn't just me.

[retdetsgt]

Originally Posted by BP348

I don't know about a law but I can think of a few right off the top of my head. Prisons and Jails.

Just because there's a policy or procedure doesn't necessarily mean there's a law covering it.

[Arrachion]

Originally Posted by Curt581

Don't you mean "... an extreme circumstance in which an armed officer could seek permission to enter, then wait until a decision is made, then receive permission, then enter the psychiatric hospital"?

The doctor's body will be stiff and cold by that time.

The literal reading of the general order presents an even more sardonic situation than you envision in that only "the physician in charge of the unit" or in his absence "any physician on duty in the unit" could give the go-ahead for armed entry. Thus if the doctor being stabbed were the only one in the facility who could give the go-ahead, and he goes unconscious or dies before getting the go-ahead out of his mouth, well, then, it looks like we're screwed, no?

I brought up this little catch-22 (using a shooter instead of a stabber) to my superiors and to the HPD captain who works with us, and it turns out that HPD brass can specify that a general order be suspended in cases of extreme exigency. To close the loophole, though, the captain is looking into having the general order reworded. For now, though, we've got the assurance that armed response is appropriate in those instances where someone is actually under attack by someone with a weapon. Thus a doctor being stabbed would rate an armed response.

[Piggy]

Originally Posted by Arrachion

For now, though, we've got the assurance that armed response is appropriate in those instances where someone is actually under attack by someone with a weapon. Thus a doctor being stabbed would rate an armed response.

I guess if you're the victim, and the Police Officer is running the other way to go get a gun, the policy would kind of suck.

[DeltaV]

Sounds like a stupid general order to me. What training and experience does a physician have in the laws surrounding use of force to determine whether or not a trained police officer can enter the facility armed? The physician is going to be more concerned with the hospital's (and his own) liability than allowing the officer proper means of defending themselves and other.

The officer (or a department supervisor) should be the one to make that decision. No non-LE person should ever determine whether or not an on-duty LEO carries a weapon somewhere. Our chief judge toyed with the idea of prohibiting firearms in the courthouse years back, but when our union president told him that we would either ignore the policy or stop showing up for court, he decided to drop that idea.

[retdetsgt]

Originally Posted by DeltaV

Our chief judge toyed with the idea of prohibiting firearms in the courthouse years back, but when our union president told him that we would either ignore the policy or stop showing up for court, he decided to drop that idea.

I suspect that in a face off between the judge and your union president, your union president would lose. The pres. can't protect officers from contempt of court.

That being said, in the late 70's, the judges here made that decision. I quit going to court in uniform. If I'm going to walk around without a gun, it's certainly not going to be where I would be that recognizable as a cop.

After about 6 months of this, I was sitting in the back of the court room, next to the door when I saw this guy walk in. I noticed the butt of a revolver under his coat. He was kind of a long hair and I wasn't sure if he was a U/C from another agency so I just watched him.

This was a "cattle court" where misdemeanors were being tried one after the other. A name was called for CCW and this guy stood up as the defendant. I crept up behind him, put my arm around his neck, pulled him backwards and pulled the gun out of his belt. The judge and the DA turned white. An off duty deputy took him to jail and the judge called me back to his chambers.

He went through the usual BS thanking me and I responded that I was glad I was sitting at the back near the door. He asked if that was so I was able to see the gun and I responded, "No, since I wasn't allowed to be armed, it was so I could get out of the room safely if the guy shot you." Two days later, the order was rescinded. It probably took that long for this judge to get to the chief judge with the story. What I didn't tell him was that I did it because there were a number of other cops in there and I was concerned about them, not anybody with a law degree.

The gun wasn't loaded. Apparently he was going to pull it out and make some sort of statement on the 2nd amendment......

[txinvestigator1]

Originally Posted by Curt581

Why yes, there is. No only jails and correctional facilities, but also Federal Courthouses.

At least, in my area.

Are you in Texas? Cause I am not aware of ANY state law here that keeps you from being armed in Jails and Correctional Facilities.

[retdetsgt]

Originally Posted by txinvestigator1

Are you in Texas? Cause I am not aware of ANY state law here that keeps you from being armed in Jails and Correctional Facilities.

There's not one in Oregon either. It's simply policy.

There are federal laws governing their facilities. I never really understood the one regarding post offices. I was told once by some fed that the law regarding locals varied depending on whether or not the post office property was leased or owned by the federal government.... I never had a situation come up so I never learned any more about it.

[BP348]

Originally Posted by retdetsgt

I suspect that in a face off between the judge and your union president, your union president would lose. The pres. can't protect officers from contempt of court.

+1

All the federal courts mandate that you disarm upon entering.

I know it depends on which judge has your case as far as the stae & local court goes. But even then 85%+ don't allow any firearms in their court.

What are you going to say? no? yea right