Polygraph

[121Traffic]

GM, go away...the polygraph is an integral part of the police hiring process. Love it or hate it, it is there. Stop advocating cheating it. If any of you people have a problem with polys so much that you don't want to take them, then don't apply at a PD. I, actually, think they are junk science, as are CVSAs...but I will NEVER rely on your site. I will be nervous and jittery like everyone else before me, because someone, somewhere whose opinions of WHO TO HIRE matter more than mine decided that it was an effective program.

Maschke, if you have such a problem with them, lobby with the PDs all you want, but do NOT come here and try to subvert future LEOs into cheating--because that is what it is...CHEATING!!!--by having them read your site. The internet is a public place, but this is a PRIVATE forum. You don't want to leave, fine...kick your feet up, stay awhile. But PLEASE respect the SUPPORTING MEMBERS wishes that you take your propaganda somewhere else. You say you and your site are about "keeping people informed about the evils of the poly", but your site is CHOCK full of methods to sidestep its intentions. You argue that you are not trying to subvert, but merely trying to expose the weaknesses of the machine. Your argument is FALSE and UNWINNABLE, as the ONLY way to convince people that the system is faulty is to read your material and CHEAT for themselves. Once they realize that your methods "work" (I still don't quite believe this to be true), you will have "shown them the light". One problem, sir...you just convinced a possible lawman to cheat (!!!) thereby nullifying your argument that you are only trying to "inform" us, the poor misguided public. :rolleyes:

GO AWAY.

[metallicat]

Well said 121. Well said.

[TX Kid]

Thanks for standing up for what I said guys, and also for doing what is right. Getting back to the topic at hand.... anyone got any more advice for me?:D Also, how do you become a supporting member here? I have been coming to realpolice.net for years, I just never really came to the boards because I was only an explorer and felt like I would be looked down upon. The site really has come a long way and is awesome, and now that (I hope) I will be becoming a Public Safety Communications Officer, I was wondering how to "give back" if you will, to the site. Thanks in advance,

Justin

[George Maschke]

George,

You are corrupting the minds of people here, and making them have thoughts about trying to cheat a polygraph exam. You are a man with poor morals and ethics, and I don't think it is right that you come here suggesting anyone to read your website information when admitting to doing so could get a police applicant in a lot of trouble.

You need to be banned from this website.

Metallicat,

Can you back up your accusation that I am "corrupting the minds of people here" by pointing out anything that I have posted here that you believe to be untrue? Or is it your contention that telling the truth about polygraphs is somehow "corrupting?"

With regard to your suggestion that I should be banned from RealPolice.net, I would note that in posting, I have abided by this site's posted rules of conduct.

Respectfully,

[metallicat]

Mettalicat,

Can you back up your accusation that I am "corrupting the minds of people here" by pointing out anything that I have posted here that you believe to be untrue? Or is it your contention that telling the truth about polygraphs is somehow "corrupting?"

With regard to your suggestion that I should be banned from RealPolice.net, I would note that in posting, I have abided by this site's posted rules of conduct.

Respectfully,

You link people to your anti polygraph website, which gives information on how to cheat a polygraph. The bottom line is that maybe some people have failed the exam when they should have passed, but what about the people that should have failed but passed because of your site and the information on it? I don't remember your answer in the past when I asked you if you failed a polygraph and are now disgruntled, but I am glad you failed whatever it was. You are corrupting the minds of naive people by making them think it is OK to cheat a polygraph if they feel they should pass no matter what.

I don't care if you have abided by the rules, this being a private message board, you can be banned for anything. And I think you should be banned because you post the URL on here.

I don't know why you come here. If a polygraph is to be used by a police department as a hiring process tool, then it should be taken by the applicant fairly, just like everyone. I despise anyone that tries to get around the exam by unethical and immoral methods. A police officer has to have both ethics and morals, and by cheating a polygraph exam, people throw out both their ethics and morals, as well as their credibility...it is unfortunate that those that do cheat will never be caught, and they will be policing on the streets when they shouldn't be.

[George Maschke]

Metallicat,

What you call "cheating a polygraph" another person might consider taking rational precautions to protect oneself against the random error associated with a procedure (polygraph screening) that the U.S. National Academy of Sciences has thoroughly reviewed and judged to be completely invalid.

While I think that every law enforcement applicant has an ethical obligation to answer relevant questions truthfully, polygraph examiners routinely lie to and otherwise deceive each and every applicant they polygraph about the nature of the procedure, and secretly expect answers to the so-called "control" questions to be untrue. Moreover, the "test" is inherently biased against the truthful, because the more candidly one answers the "control" questions, and as a consequence experiences less when answering them, the more likely one is to fail. In such a situation, I think it is not unethical for truthful applicants to use countermeasures to protect themselves against the very real risk of a false positive outcome.

I replied to your question about my past experience with the polygraph in an earlier post here:

http://forums.realpolice.net/showpos...0&postcount=13

I regret that you are glad I failed the polygraph, when I in fact told the truth. I do not wish the same for you or anyone else here.

Respectfully,

[metallicat]

Metallicat,

What you call "cheating a polygraph" another person might consider taking rational precautions to protect oneself against the random error associated with a procedure (polygraph screening) that the U.S. National Academy of Sciences has thoroughly reviewed and judged to be completely invalid.

While I think that every law enforcement applicant has an ethical obligation to answer relevant questions truthfully, polygraph examiners routinely lie to and otherwise deceive each and every applicant they polygraph about the nature of the procedure, and secretly expect answers to the so-called "control" questions to be untrue. Moreover, the "test" is inherently biased against the truthful, because the more candidly one answers the "control" questions, and as a consequence experiences less when answering them, the more likely one is to fail. In such a situation, I think it is not unethical for truthful applicants to use countermeasures to protect themselves against the very real risk of a false positive outcome.

I replied to your question about my past experience with the polygraph in an earlier post here:

http://forums.realpolice.net/showpos...0&postcount=13

I regret that you are glad I failed the polygraph, when I in fact told the truth. I do not wish the same for you or anyone else here.

Respectfully,

George,

How are you to know that it is a rational person using your methods? What is a guy is totally honest in everything in a hiring process EXCEPT for stuff about child pornography. So he gets passed the polygraph because he used counter-measures, and now there is a pedophile pervert running around the streets in a position of authority...does that sound right to you?

When you took your polygraph, you probably went in there with a clear head and did not try to cheat the exam. That is great, and I applaud you for that. But now, you are displaying measures that can show people how to pass the exam when they possibly shouldn't, therefore showing your true side. I believe your intentions to be unethical, and that is why I am glad you didn't make it passed the exam. If you are showing these tendancies now, what would you have done if you made it past the polygraph and onto the job?

I hope that every single person that has to take a polygraph and does so without cheating passes. I hope everyone that takes a polygraph and uses counter-measures designed to undermine the (and in most cases unavoidable) polygraph and its desired outcomes fails.

[metallicat]

George, let me say this...maybe your ultimate intentions are just for the right people who are telling the truth to get hired and that is fine...but what about the people that shouldn't be getting hired that do because they use counter-measures? Does that not go against exactly what your ultimate intentions would be?

[George Maschke]

George, let me say this...maybe your ultimate intentions are just for the right people who are telling the truth to get hired and that is fine...but what about the people that shouldn't be getting hired that do because they use counter-measures? Does that not go against exactly what your ultimate intentions would be?

Metallicat,

It is certainly not AntiPolygraph.org's purpose to help unqualified applicants to get hired. But there is no way to make information about polygraphy available to truthful applicants without also making available to everyone.

Bear in mind that AntiPolygraph.org did not just make up the information that we provide. It comes from documented sources that are available in most university research libraries, and a fellow named Doug Williams has been selling a manual on polygraph countermeasures since about 1979. Information about "how to cheat the polygraph" has long been publicly available, and would continue to be if AntiPolygraph.org were to go offline.

What AntiPolygraph.org is doing that is new is making well-researched information on polygraph validity, policy, procedure, and countermeasures readily available (via the Internet) and free.

An instructor at the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute raised some of the ethical concerns you've voiced here in the American Polygraph Association quarterly, Polygraph. I prepared a response, which you might find of interest, here:

http://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-029.shtml

[metallicat]

George, contrary to previous statements of mine saying I wouldn't go back to your website, I did read that piece you linked us all to. I will quote one part of Paul M. Menges' words that I like:

"These efforts, while currently not illegal, cross the bounds of ethical conduct and present a threat to public safety and good order in society."

I agree with that statement, and this it is very important. Nothing is stopping criminals from employing techniques found on your website and elsewhere on the internet, and that is what is scary. Do you want a pedophile for example passing a polygraph and becoming a police officer? Of course you don't, but the information is there for him, and your website makes it that much easier to obtain it. Sure he could get it elsewhere if your website didn't exist, but that is beyond the point.

In your last post you said this:

"It is certainly not AntiPolygraph.org's purpose to help unqualified applicants to get hired. But there is no way to make information about polygraphy available to truthful applicants without also making available to everyone."

The way to do is not make it available to anyone. If the counter measure techniques work, that is highly dangerous. Nobody should have access to them on the internet. That is impossible unfortunately.

Your website, is ANTI polygraph...so why not focus only on getting the polygraph eliminated? Don't teach people counter-measures which according to Menges "cross the bounds of ethical conduct", stick to getting the law changed if you feel it is necessary.

If the "purpose to help unqualified applicants to get hired" is not yours, why are the messages on your message board not deleted when they admit to lying to pass the exam?

[rob1982]

Honestly though, do these tricks work? Anybody can read this stuff all over the web but how do you know if it works? I don't know about you but I want to take my chances with the truth rather than to try changing my blood pressure with math problems in my head. Anyone who tries these things is definitely taking their hopes into their own hands. Also, polygraph examiners on average are probably pretty good at picking up on changes in a persons responses. Metallicat I wouldn't look to much into this. However, George shouldn't be put down for posting because he's not forcing it upon anyone just showing people another opinion. Someone who reads the information on the site and then uses it would be someone of questionable character. In my opinion it is good information but not information that someone who wants to be an example of their community should necessarily follow.
Thanks
Rob

[121Traffic]

Is there stuff about being a pedophile on the polygraph? If there isn't, I am trying to figure out if there should be. On one hand, I do not think I would agree with the question "Are you attracted to children" just as I would not agree with other questions as to sexual orientation. But, I would wholeheartedly agree with "Have you ever watched Child Porn." I dunno...I will have to think about this more...

...make though mistake though, lol, I do NOT condone sexual attraction to children.

[nealopp]

George, you have corrupted MY mind. When I first began lurking on these boards, one of the earliest posts I read was one of your antipolygraph cut-and-paste jobs. Being naive, I checked it out. I have, unfortunately, read the "cheating the polygraph" stuff on the site. Unfortunately, since I have no intention of using that information, I now have no choice but to tell the examiner that I do, in fact, know countermeasures.

How's that gonna make me look?
Thanks for nothing.

[TX Kid]

AHEM... Getting back to the topic at hand :mad:!!! Does anyone know of any "abnormal" questions that might be thrown my way during this examination?

[metallicat]

A friend of mine was supposedly asked if he views pornography on the internet, and then asked for what purpose.