TX question: was this citation lawful?

[TX1234567]

Hello - I'm new here and seeking some input from law enforcement professionals, hopefully some TX police will be able to help me better understand the law and how it was applied in this situation.

About 5:30am I stopped at the grocery store. Getting back in my car, I noticed there was a police cruiser sitting nearby with his engine running. Officer was in his car. I got into my vehicle and exited the store parking lot. I noticed the officer pulled up right behind my car and followed me out of the parking lot. As soon as I pulled onto the public roadway, he turned on his lights and pulled me over.

When I asked him, "why did you stop me, officer?" He told me that my vehicle registration and inspection sticker were both expired (vehicle reg is just past 30 days expired, inspection within 60 days). Considering it was still dark at this time of the morning, I figure the only way he could have known this was if he was checking out my car up close in the store parking lot and waiting for me to exit the store.

I let the officer know that the reason I have not renewed the reg/inspections was because I lost my job a few months ago and have not been able to afford the cost of renewals (I drive an older car and some costly repairs are going to be needed before I can pass my emissions test for inspection). I asked if he would consider issuing a warning instead of a citation under the circumstances.

He already had the ticket written and refused to consider issuing a warning, which I also found kind of odd considering the expirations are fairly recent and I have a squeaky clean driving record. This really made me wonder if the officer was trying to meet some kind of quota, might have been having a slow night and was looking in parking lots for some tickets to write.

I understand that I can probably get the fines dismissed if I renew the registration/inspection within the allotted amount of time and show the court proof that I have done so, but my question is more about the method employed in this traffic stop and if it was legal and/or ethical.

Is it lawful for a police officer to hang out in parking lots looking for violations, wait for the vehicle owner to exit the store, then follow the driver onto a public roadway in order to pull them over? I'm told that police cannot write tickets on private property for violations such as expired tags/inspection, so is that why he followed me out onto the road?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can provide.

[Citicop]

1.) Quotas have been ruled to be illegal on every occasion they have been before a court that I am aware of. Even police unions oppose them.

2.) If you were driving on a public road, it doesn't matter how, when, or where the officer observed the violation. If you want to be "on base" on private property because police in Texas can't cite you there (I don't know if this is true, I'm not from Texas) then stay on private property.

The officer did nothing illegal or unethical. He observed a violation and took action (by issuing a citation). I'm sorry you disagree with his decision. So do most people who get tickets.

Contrary to popular belief, no one is ENTITLED to a warning. Rather than focus on the wrongs you think the officer did, perhaps you could focus on what you (and we) KNOW you did wrong- Drive without proper registration and inspection.

It's not a serious violation, true, but it is a violation. Expired by one day is not a more serious crime than expired by six months. It's the same crime under the law.

The advice I would provide you is as follows:

1.) Get the problem fixed and go to court. Maybe you will catch a break.

2.) Grow up and start taking responsibility for your actions.

-Citicop.

[janego10]

To tell you the truth this citation was lawful. The officer just may have run your plates and got the expiration date on your registration. He waited for you to get on a public road then pulled you over. He then wrote you for the violation you knowingly committed. What I would suggest is fix all your expired stickers and talk to the judge. At least in my part of Texas the judges are not here to stick you for every little thing...they have empathy for those that attempt to right their wrongs. It never hurts to try.

[TX-LEO]

Is it lawful for a police officer to hang out in parking lots looking for violations, wait for the vehicle owner to exit the store, then follow the driver onto a public roadway in order to pull them over? I'm told that police cannot write tickets on private property for violations such as expired tags/inspection, so is that why he followed me out onto the road?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can provide.

SIGH. Yes it's legal, ethical and all the other key words you used. Most cars have mobile data terminals, and radios to contact dispatch to check plates. The month and year it expires is also in big letters on your stickers and is easy to see from even across a medium parking lot.

If you get those violations fixed within 10 days of the citation and are within 60 days of both expirations, the fix will cost you i believe a max of $40.00.

If you would have renewed your registration before, that $40.00 would have paid all but 5 or 10$ of your registration, and you'd only have $13.00 left to get an inspection.

There are no ticket quotas.

Learn anything?

[Ispbear]

Yes it was!



Next!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SnapShawt]

I have on many occasions driven through parking lots on slow patrol and always notice expired registration, inspection, etc. There have been times that I have waited for the vehicle owner to come to the vehicle and talked to him there (no, being in a store parking lot makes no difference), other times I've waited for them to drive away and then lit them up, other times I noticed and went on my way .... different reasons for each decision and method employed. Perfectly legal and ethical.

You had expired registration and inspection. Instead of simply accepting responsibility for it, you instead do that AND attempt to find something wrong with the way the ticket was issued and seem to feel entitled to a warning for something so "petty" so to speak. Never ends - people either wanting to shirk or downplay their personal responsbility and instead try to find something wrong with the officer even when there clearly isn't anythign wrong on that end at all.

[Samuel]

Yes it was!



Next!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly.



NEXT!!!

[TX1234567]

Thank you for your replies to my query. I'm a little surprised by the tendency of many posters above to immediately assume that there was criminal intent, however. I know my inital post was lengthy so maybe you missed this part - so I will re-post it below:

" I let the officer know that the reason I have not renewed the reg/inspections was because I lost my job a few months ago and have not been able to afford the cost of renewals (I drive an older car and some costly repairs are going to be needed before I can pass my emissions test for inspection). I asked if he would consider issuing a warning instead of a citation under the circumstances."

I'm fully aware that there are plenty of rich folks driving around with expired tags/inspection stickers who are just plain irresponsible and don't bother to renew on time. This is not the case with me. When I had a job, I *always* kept my car street legal and was never late with renewing tags/stickers.

In this case, my only crime was being too poor to afford the repairs. While I now take the bus around town instead of driving a car that isn't street legal, I had to make an exception for a 5am store run because buses don't run at that time of day here. Is it right to criminalize people for being poor or unemployed when they are at least making an effort to be responsible?

I think our society would be a better place if more officers handled the decision to issue a warning or a citation on a case by case basis dependent upon circumstances, rather than leaving it for a judge to decide. This only clogs up our courts when the officer is in a position to make that judgement call during the traffic stop itself. In this case, the officer could see that I wasn't driving a nice BMW with 6-month expired tags - I was driving a 15 year-old car and told him the truth about my financial situation, essentially throwing myself upon his mercy.

He chose to issue $300 in citations anyway, knowing full well that I am not in any financial position to pay them with no source of income. Heck, if I can't afford a few hundred to get my car past the new emissions tests required for inspection, how am I supposed to come up with another $300 for the tickets?

If you were in the same situation and pulled someone over, would you be able to tell the difference between someone who can obviously afford to keep their car street legal and chooses not to and a person who has been struggling financially but is at least doing the best they can to remedy the situation and be a responsible driver? How would you handle a stop like that?

As an update, I have since borrowed the money to repair the car from my mother (who is elderly, ill and lives on a fixed income, so I did not want to ask her for help except in a dire emergency) and the car is now street legal. I've made the effort and fixed the problem, even though I could not afford it. So now I have gone into debt and am still faced with court costs and the tickets themselves if the judge does not dismiss them.

In this economy, there are lots of people like me who are struggling just to keep up with the basics - food, shelter, utilities, car inspections/insurance - and a little compassion goes a long way.

As any good peace officer knows, it's not always about generating as much revenue for your department as possible - it's about treating the citizens fairly. Chasing someone out of a parking lot at 5am to write a ticket for a non-moving violation with no interest whatsoever in the extenuating circumstances present seems a very hard way to go about things, and not the way to earn the goodwill of responsible citizens who have simply fallen upon hard times and who are doing the best they can to be responsible.

My friends in the legal & law enforcement communities who I've expressed this to agree completely and thought the stop was suspicious from the get-go, even if it was legal.

Thank you once again for your responses to my question. Just wanted to update you and provide some food for thought....next time you choose to pull over a low-income driver who is clearly no menace or danger to society, perhaps consider their circumstances and issue a warning instead.

[furetto7]

Speaking as a Texas Peace Officer with more than 36 years experience, the stop was legal and there was nothing suspicious about the event. I and a lot of other officers will make a habit of cruising through the parking lots of open businesses at night, this is done to detect and deter criminal activity in the business and the parking area.

By habit and training I will scan the registration and inspection stickers of every vehicle in the lot, time permitting, I will sometimes wait for the owner of a vehicle in obvious violation to get into the vehicle and leave the parking lot before I make the stop.

Unless the department has a zero tolerance policy in place every officer on the street can and do exercise officers discretion in how they handle the stop. Your original post shows that you knowingly and willfully operated a motor vehicle upon the public road in violation of state law.

You knowingly broke the law, your financial situation and the health/income of your mother are, as such, irrelevant to this act. Since we have only your side of the story there are undoubtably facts missing from your story that the officer used in the decision to cite you for the violations.

[Creeker]

...I think our society would be a better place if more officers handled the decision to issue a warning or a citation on a case by case basis dependent upon circumstances, rather than leaving it for a judge to decide. This only clogs up our courts when the officer is in a position to make that judgement call during the traffic stop itself. In this case, the officer could see that I wasn't driving a nice BMW with 6-month expired tags - I was driving a 15 year-old car and told him the truth about my financial situation, essentially throwing myself upon his mercy.

He chose to issue $300 in citations anyway, knowing full well that I am not in any financial position to pay them with no source of income. Heck, if I can't afford a few hundred to get my car past the new emissions tests required for inspection, how am I supposed to come up with another $300 for the tickets?

If you were in the same situation and pulled someone over, would you be able to tell the difference between someone who can obviously afford to keep their car street legal and chooses not to and a person who has been struggling financially but is at least doing the best they can to remedy the situation and be a responsible driver? How would you handle a stop like that?

As an update, I have since borrowed the money to repair the car from my mother (who is elderly, ill and lives on a fixed income, so I did not want to ask her for help except in a dire emergency) and the car is now street legal. I've made the effort and fixed the problem, even though I could not afford it. So now I have gone into debt and am still faced with court costs and the tickets themselves if the judge does not dismiss them.

In this economy, there are lots of people like me who are struggling just to keep up with the basics - food, shelter, utilities, car inspections/insurance - and a little compassion goes a long way.

As any good peace officer knows, it's not always about generating as much revenue for your department as possible - it's about treating the citizens fairly. Chasing someone out of a parking lot at 5am to write a ticket for a non-moving violation with no interest whatsoever in the extenuating circumstances present seems a very hard way to go about things, and not the way to earn the goodwill of responsible citizens who have simply fallen upon hard times and who are doing the best they can to be responsible.

My friends in the legal & law enforcement communities who I've expressed this to agree completely and thought the stop was suspicious from the get-go, even if it was legal.

Thank you once again for your responses to my question. Just wanted to update you and provide some food for thought....next time you choose to pull over a low-income driver who is clearly no menace or danger to society, perhaps consider their circumstances and issue a warning instead.

So, if I have this straight, in your Puppy Dogs 'n' Lollypops world, Cops would be Judges on the street, and they should be expected to believe what everyone they stopped said was the truth. They should also accept that there is no one driving around in a 15 year old car with expired tags, possibly no insurance, that doesn't have a valid and plausible excuse (if there were such a thing) for violating a LAW.

I find it interesting that you managed to find a loan after you got caught, but not prior to being caught... yet you still have a computer with Internet access, instead of selling the computer on Craigslist to pay for the car repairs and tickets.

You also managed to find a supposedly valid reason to be out and about at 5AM between the first post and the last, because you can bet your bippy that with all of the rest of your excuses in the first post, you surely would have posted that one if it were true.

Beer Run?

Your definition of a "responsible citizen" leaves much to be desired. Responsible citizens don't define responsibility with extenuating circumstances. They also mind their own house and don't envy the houses of others, because jealousy and self-righteousness isn't at all becoming. Your business is you, not everyone else.

In this economy there are plenty of people who truly are responsible, have lost their jobs and are working at Micky D's to make ends meet. Their cars with expired tags and Inspection are either sitting on the used car lot or in their yard and haven't moved.

Then there are others who bought houses and cars they couldn't afford, didn't make credit card payments, and now think the Government's job is to suckle them at its teet, which is forcing those of us who didn't to support their failed lifestyle in some form or fashion.

Your friends in the legal and law enforcement arenas are not blessed with the ability to remain anonymous to you, since you appear to be quite the resentful natterbox to at least me. Suspicious? Very hardly. No Cop worth his badge would use that term in this circumstance, and I am certain they would resent you using it for them.

Grow up.

[FBINA188]

Just wanted to update you and provide some food for thought....next time you choose to pull over a low-income driver who is clearly no menace or danger to society, perhaps consider their circumstances and issue a warning instead.

While you see it that way, here's how I see it:

The low-income driver who is clearly no menace or danger to society, shouldn't knowingly be violating the law and then blaming the officer who decides to stop and cite him.

While I feel for your circumstance, I have no sympathy when you get in your car knowing that you are subject to be stopped and cited.

It's like gambling ... you took the chance, and you lost, period!

This is by no means the officers fault ... it's yours.

In the end it's really very simple - get things fixed, or don't drive. Problem solved :yup:

And as for the officers action ... he did nothing wrong.

[Piggy]

So what you are suggesting is that when stopping someone, we should ask for license, registration and the most recent three years of tax returns, to target rich people when issuing tickets?

You want my advice? Cut off your internet service so you can pay for the necessities. That way you won't be tempted to blame the police for something which is your own fault, and you'll be able to meet your legal obligations to drive.

[Curt581]

" I let the officer know that the reason I have not renewed the reg/inspections was because I lost my job a few months ago and have not been able to afford the cost of renewals (I drive an older car and some costly repairs are going to be needed before I can pass my emissions test for inspection). I asked if he would consider issuing a warning instead of a citation under the circumstances."

We didn't miss it, we just hear it all the time. From everybody, of all economic levels. No one can afford tickets.

:rolleyes:

In this case, my only crime was being too poor to afford the repairs. While I now take the bus around town instead of driving a car that isn't street legal, I had to make an exception for a 5am store run because buses don't run at that time of day here. Is it right to criminalize people for being poor or unemployed when they are at least making an effort to be responsible?

1. If you're that poor, how can you afford to pay for insurance or buy GAS?

Oh, that's right, you can't afford to pay for insurance.

2. Just because you chose to make an exception, doesn't mean we have to.

3. You're not being criminalized for being poor or unemployed. You were cited for driving illegally... by your own admission. Whether you admit it or not, the two are NOT interrelated. There are alternate forms of transportation. No one forced you to drive.

4. "Making an effort" is the same as "Almost". It only counts when throwing Horseshoes or hand grenades.

"Do, or Do Not. There is no "try".

I think our society would be a better place if more officers handled the decision to issue a warning or a citation on a case by case basis dependent upon circumstances, rather than leaving it for a judge to decide. This only clogs up our courts when the officer is in a position to make that judgement call during the traffic stop itself.

I think our society would be a better place if people would accept responsibility for their own actions, instead of blaming others for putting them in a position where they "had" to break the law.

Besides, what you're talking about is discriminatory, and violates the Constitutional principle of "Equal Protection under The Law", since in your world, only people who can afford to pay fines would be required to obey traffic laws... because they would be the only ones eligible for punishment.

Thank you once again for your responses to my question. Just wanted to update you and provide some food for thought....next time you choose to pull over a low-income driver who is clearly no menace or danger to society, perhaps consider their circumstances and issue a warning instead.

I disagree. I think... no, I know... that you clearly ARE a menace to society... as are all uninsured, unregistered or unlicensed motorists. I know for a fact that if you were involved in a traffic collision, the other driver would get screwed financially. If they were to be injured, they'd more than likely be ruined for years to come.

All because YOU chose to "make an exception".

[RoadKingTrooper]

As any good peace officer knows, it's not always about generating as much revenue for your department as possible - it's about treating the citizens fairly. Chasing someone out of a parking lot at 5am to write a ticket for a non-moving violation with no interest whatsoever in the extenuating circumstances present seems a very hard way to go about things, and not the way to earn the goodwill of responsible citizens who have simply fallen upon hard times and who are doing the best they can to be responsible.

Wow! I wish I was as smart as you;)

You got caught, came here to whine and when you didn't get validation, decided to lecture.

Well you're not very good at it:sad: Don't give up your daytime job

[retdetsgt]

" I let the officer know that the reason I have not renewed the reg/inspections was because I lost my job a few months ago and have not been able to afford the cost of renewals (I drive an older car and some costly repairs are going to be needed before I can pass my emissions test for inspection). I asked if he would consider issuing a warning instead of a citation under the circumstances."

Life sucks, doesn't it? And you're no doubt the only one in the whole world who has run into financial problems so we should all chip in and take care of you. And no doubt what you had to buy at that store at 5 a.m. was a life saving drug.... Or cigarettes.....

Gotta a flash for ya, Tex, we're law enforcement, not a social service agency. If you can't afford to get your car inspected and registered, buy a bicycle and ride it until you can and quit whining.

And yes, the citation was lawful.