Ethics regarding police ignoring suicide threat

[jemc]

I am trying to get information on the ethical and legal obligation of a sworn peace officer in the state of Minnesota to respond to a suicide threat made to him by a reserve officer under his supervision.

[Citicop]

It depends entirely on the circumstances of the threat.

Without more info, no one will be able to give you the information.

Citicop.

[Piggy]

+1 for Citicop. There's a big difference between saying "If Dancing With the Stars Goes Off the Air, I'd just want to die" vs. "Have a good life, I'm heading home to blow my brains out".

Then you'll have to prove the Supervisor heard the threat, had reason to believe the threat was serious, and had the ability to do something about it.

[retdetsgt]

The simple answer is he has no responsibility if the reserve is an adult. A lot depends on the way the threat was given, if it was an off hand remark, he may not have realized the person was serious. But we are not responsible for the willful actions of another adult.

That being said, I have referred people to counseling if I thought they were seriously having a problem. But it was up to them to carry through with the assistance.

If the person is perched on a ledge threating to jump, that's different, but if it's a conversation, no.

If you're looking for someone to blame, that's not going to cut it.

[jemc]

I find it interesting that you would automatically assume I would be looking for someone to blame. I want to be sure this does not happen to any other family and try to push the police department to improve their training in the area of mental health issues so that officers understand that suicide is not a joke, people do not attempt suicide for "attention," and people who are depressed are NOT crazy. In fact, less than 3% of the people who attempt suicide are diagnosed as psychotic or schizophrenic, what most people in the general public refer to as "crazy." As for additional information, both officers involved knew the Reserve officer had a history of depression. One officer told the reserve officer he was concerned about her welfare because she had become so lethargic and stopped eating, yet did nothing. She was so depressed she was not capable of seeking help on her own. Within less than a week of that conversation, she notified them she was in the process of killing herself. All I want to know is if there are any ethical or legal obligations on their part. If so, every officer should be aware of them and if not, I feel there should be. Ignorance is not bliss, it can be deadly. I want to make something positive comes from this and am not interested in pointing fingers or trying to place blame. Also, just saying "she is an adult.." is ignorant and a rather juvenile response to a very serious subject.

[JeffW]

Adams v. Freemont basically says that there is not a legal responsibility, however ethics or moral obligations are something totally different. I find it hard to believe that a supervisor in a department would just blow off remarks of a fellow officer. These are tough issues for some to deal with.

Unfortunately too many officers are lost each year to suicide. Their pain either physical, mental or imagined becomes too much to deal with and they seek escape of that pain through a permanent means for what may only be a temporary problem.

[Plazoo]

I find it interesting that you would automatically assume I would be looking for someone to blame. I want to be sure this does not happen to any other family and try to push the police department to improve their training in the area of mental health issues so that officers understand that suicide is not a joke, people do not attempt suicide for "attention," and people who are depressed are NOT crazy. In fact, less than 3% of the people who attempt suicide are diagnosed as psychotic or schizophrenic, what most people in the general public refer to as "crazy."

Believe me, we know probably better than you that suicide is not a joke. I've been to a few suicides and find nothing funny anout them. And, yes, some suicide attempts actually are a cry for attention..whether that is a way of saying they want mental health help or as a tool to get back at someone. As hard as you may find it to believe, some people actually do "attempt" suicide as a way to get help. And no, the majority of suicidal people are NOT crazy...which is way, in a lot of cases, we can't involuntarily commit them or do much more than ask if they want help.

[/QUOTE]As for additional information, both officers involved knew the Reserve officer had a history of depression. One officer told the reserve officer he was concerned about her welfare because she had become so lethargic and stopped eating, yet did nothing. [/QUOTE]

Okay, so she was depressed. What should have they had done? A large percentage of the population suffers from depression, does that mean that every depressed person is suicidal? They talked to her about their concern and tried to help her but, apparently, she did not accept their offers of advise/help. There is only so much a co-worker can do.

She was so depressed she was not capable of seeking help on her own. Within less than a week of that conversation, she notified them she was in the process of killing herself. All I want to know is if there are any ethical or legal obligations on their part. If so, every officer should be aware of them and if not, I feel there should be. Ignorance is not bliss, it can be deadly.

Again, just what do you think they should have done? You said they spoke to her so I'm assuming that she must have responded in such a way that they believed she was not a threat to herself or others. Plus, if she was a reserve officer, that would mean that the police did not see her on a daily basis so could only judge her behaviour on the couple days a month when she was fulfilling her reserve duties.

My question is, if she was obviously that depressed and obviously suicidal, where were her friends and family? I'm sure they had more regular contact with her than the members of her department did.

While what she did to herself is regrettable, the people she worked with are not psychiatrists or mind readers. Even if they believed she may intend to hurt herself, without any solid statements, or other indicators, from her, there's not much they could have legally done.

I want to make something positive comes from this and am not interested in pointing fingers or trying to place blame. Also, just saying "she is an adult.." is ignorant and a rather juvenile response to a very serious subject.

Unfortunately, she was an adult and, as such, cannot be forced into therapy or be involuntarily committed without something more than being depressed. It's neither ignorant or juvenile...just the simple truth.

While situations like what this person did to herself are sad and terrible, the police cannot go around detaining and committing people just because they 'think' the person "might" hurt themself.

I'm sorry for your loss but it seems you're directing your anger, sadness and frustration at the wrong people.

[Taz_bb2]

Crazy is one category, depressed is another, sometimes they cross, and sometimes, S*%T happens.

Bipolar (manic-depressive) often goes undiagnosed due to the shame or varying degrees that may manifest itself. It is separate from depression, your "crazy" category, but just as deadly.

Suicides among law enforcement happens for a variety of reasons. My old agency recently lost a Deputy to suicide. He had a great career, a spot on the Aviation unit as a Pilot, and had a loving supportive family. Like most Americans, his family has been feeling the strain of the economic crisis. One night, he and his wife got into an argument about money as they were looking at foreclosure on their home. He stood up and said, "OK, I'll fix this." He walked out to his truck and blew his brains out. Was he depressed? Maybe. Was he crazy? No way. Maybe it was just the stress of life (notice I did NOT say the stress of the job) and maybe it was just the frustration of finances that weighed on him. This is one of those s&$t happens situations. There were no outward signs for anyone to cue in on. It just happened.

Actually, most ATTEMPTED suicides ARE for those screaming for attention. They do not actually want to go through with it, but are too afraid or ashamed to ask for help. Those that are serious about it...we end up responding to calls of a dead person. When the person is serious, you rarely hear any threats, any manifest declarations of intent of bodily harm. It just happens, and everyone else is left to pick up the pieces.

The main thing for you to understand is that Law Enforcement Officers across this nation are HUMAN...prone to missing signs just like you. We are imperfect people being asked to do a perfect job under the toughest conditions in the world, where everything we do is second-guessed for the next two hundred years, with the very real penalty of a mistake costing us our life, our job, our homes, or our families. We can be trained 364 days a year...and STILL miss a sign or an indicator that one day on the job. Why? Because the human race is not ABC-XYZ. We are not predictable beings. As I said before...the ones that really want to take the cowardly way out rarely tell anyone.

In your instance, is it possible that a sign was missed. Sure. Can it be fixed with training? No. We can increase the likelihood that we might see it in the future, but in the end, we are still human like you.

Each of us ARE adults, and are responsible for OUR OWN decisions, not anyone elses. She made that choice, no one else. As to your claim that she was too weak to ask for help...IMO, hogwash. She still had functionality of speech, for you claim she later said she was "in the process of killing herself." She still had the cognitive function of speech, so she still could ask for help. And the other officers know there are other sources of help than just her chain of command. They could have easily taken her to any number or resources on a day off to get her the help she needed. Anybody, including the officer that killed herself, could have gotten help, but nobody did. It's a shame, but in the end, it was HER decision and hers alone.

[retdetsgt]

I find it interesting that you would automatically assume I would be looking for someone to blame. I want to be sure this does not happen to any other family and try to push the police department to improve their training in the area of mental health issues so that officers understand that suicide is not a joke, people do not attempt suicide for "attention," and people who are depressed are NOT crazy.

The rest of that post is quite clear that you are looking for someone to blame. Looks like I was right on.

I've investigated probably 100 suicides in my career. How many have you? Six of my colleagues over my career ate their guns. You know one person who did and now you're an expert on it and how police should react?

We are not mental health professionals and I'm sick of know nothing, do gooders expecting it. We are supposed to recognize that some jackass who's violent at 2 in the morning isn't just an asswipe, but he's mentally ill and we should respond accordingly.:rolleyes: Someone's family member or friend commits suicide and suddenly it's the cops' fault. Where the hell were they when this person was "asking for help"?

An no, saying someone is an adult, isn't stupid or ignorant. It's the truth. We are law enforcers. We do what we can to help the public, but as hard as it probably is for you to believe, people are responsible for themselves. And next in line is family and friends, not the government. And certainly not the police.

And more importantly, we have limited power. We can suggest someone get help, but unless that person is standing on the brink of a ledge, etc., we have no authority to take them to a mental health professional. Simple as that.

And yes, people do attempt suicide to get attention. Sorry, but they do. Killing yourself really isn't that hard physically. If someone really wants to do it, it's easy. Take a car, get up to 60 mph and head straight for a concrete abutment and take off the seat belt. That's what a lot of one car fatal accidents are. I can tell you from experience, there is a HUGE gap between what a person does when they attempt suicide and when they mean it. And I'm not referring to the result, but the methodology.

Reading a couple of articles on suicide on the Internet doesn't make you an expert.

[Curt581]

I find it interesting that you would automatically assume I would be looking for someone to blame.

Aren't you?

If you were given the answer you seem to be looking for; ie, you were told "Yes, the officers that knew would be culpable"... what would you do with this information?

I want to be sure this does not happen to any other family and try to push the police department to improve their training in the area of mental health issues so that officers understand that suicide is not a joke,

We are well aware suicide isn't a joke. However... we are somewhat limited in what can be trained and what falls outside the scope of our duties. We aren't mental health professionals. We simply can't be everything to everyone. If we instituted every training program that every group with an agenda pushed for, we'd do nothing but train. We'd never get out on the street to actually do what we're training to do.

I always find it strange that people who've been the subject of an unfortunate tragedy always want to ensure that "it never happens again to another family". If that were true, why did you wait until someone you knew did it? Do you think no other LEOs have committed suicide before she did? If you know they have, why haven't you pushed this issue before it happened to you? Answer: Because it wasn't important to you then.

people do not attempt suicide for "attention," and people who are depressed are NOT crazy.

Now there, you are wrong. People attempt suicide as a way to get attention all the time. The attempts might not be serious, but how do we differentiate between 'serious', and 'not serious'? Answer: We can't. The same person might commit a non-serious act today, could commit a serious act tomorrow. Some even attempt a non-serious act that results in accidental death.

As for additional information, both officers involved knew the Reserve officer had a history of depression. One officer told the reserve officer he was concerned about her welfare because she had become so lethargic and stopped eating, yet did nothing. She was so depressed she was not capable of seeking help on her own. Within less than a week of that conversation, she notified them she was in the process of killing herself. All I want to know is if there are any ethical or legal obligations on their part.

To do what exactly? Place her on an Emergency Detention? That works for 72 hours in my state. Would you have had time to sit and watch her every minute, 24 hours a day for weeks or months on end? Because that's what it would take. Even then, there's better than even odds it could still happen. Someone who is truly suicidal and determined to carry out the act will find a way. Holding them in detention often just delays it.

Not to mention, depriving a legal adult of their freedom is a big deal. Not something to be considered likely. For an LEO, it's even more complicated. A mental health detention could result in suspension or termination of employment. No agency wants the of liability of retaining a suicidal officer. Would you want to be the officer that reports someone and as a direct result, gets them fired? Wouldn't that make her depression worse and more likely to commit suicide?

If so, every officer should be aware of them and if not, I feel there should be. Ignorance is not bliss, it can be deadly. I want to make something positive comes from this and am not interested in pointing fingers or trying to place blame. Also, just saying "she is an adult.." is ignorant and a rather juvenile response to a very serious subject.

No, it's not ignorant or juvenile. Adults are ultimately responsible for their own actions. She did this to herself and to you. Suicide is a selfish act. But since she's not here to hold responsible, you're looking for someone else to be culpable, even if it's just a little bit, and even if it's in a roundabout way... like changing a training program.

[retdetsgt]

Back in the mid 70's, Portland put a new freeway bridge over the Willamette river. The top ramp is about 300 ft from the water.

Because the top ramp could be accessed from my district, I was given responsibility for it. And as you would guess, it was a great place to "commit suicide".

There is a ledge about 2-3' wide on the other side of the guardrail. People would stand on it and wait for me to come, I guess. After the first circus of blocking traffic, etc. for some moron, I took a different tack.

When I got a call on a jumper, I stopped the car about 10' from the "jumper", got out, walked briskly to the jumper, grab them by the clothing and yard them across the guardrail, throw them to the pavement and handcuff them w/o ever saying a word. EVERY time, no exceptions in about 7-8 instances, the first words they said was, "But, you were supposed to talk to me first!"

That wasn't a cry for attention? I wouldn't recommend that to anyone, but it worked for me. My philosophy was that if they wanted to commit suicide and jump, why wait for me to show up? I'm sure several probably had to wait as long as 30 minutes because this was before cell phones and someone had to stop their car and go to a phone to report them to the police. If you can't talk yourself into jumping in that time, you ain't serious.

After about a year, we didn't get calls on jumpers any longer. And I don't recall many bodies washing up in the river from suicides either.

So yeah, a lot of attempts are no more than "look at me".:rolleyes:

[Johninaustin]

MOST suicide attempts are for attention. How else do you explain the housewife with 15 previous suicide attempts? Poor planning? :rolleyes:

Bottom line, your focus is misplaced. Damn shame you didn't think this issue was important BEFORE your friend killed herself. Instead of blaming the police I suggest you look in a mirror.

[BP348]

The rest of that post is quite clear that you are looking for someone to blame. Looks like I was right on.

I was thinking the same thing :rolleyes:

[Samuel]

I find it interesting that you would automatically assume I would be looking for someone to blame. I want to be sure this does not happen to any other family and try to push the police department to improve their training in the area of mental health issues so that officers understand that suicide is not a joke, people do not attempt suicide for "attention," and people who are depressed are NOT crazy. In fact, less than 3% of the people who attempt suicide are diagnosed as psychotic or schizophrenic, what most people in the general public refer to as "crazy." As for additional information, both officers involved knew the Reserve officer had a history of depression. One officer told the reserve officer he was concerned about her welfare because she had become so lethargic and stopped eating, yet did nothing. She was so depressed she was not capable of seeking help on her own. Within less than a week of that conversation, she notified them she was in the process of killing herself. All I want to know is if there are any ethical or legal obligations on their part. If so, every officer should be aware of them and if not, I feel there should be. Ignorance is not bliss, it can be deadly. I want to make something positive comes from this and am not interested in pointing fingers or trying to place blame. Also, just saying "she is an adult.." is ignorant and a rather juvenile response to a very serious subject.

:rolleyes:

And why didn't YOU do anything about it? If you didn't, maybe YOU SHOULD/COULD HAVE. If you did, maybe YOU SHOULD/COULD HAVE done something MORE.

:rolleyes:

[mcsap]

What EXACTLY does " she notified them that she was in the process of killing herself " mean ??

Can you quote her exact words or specifically describe her actions ?